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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

children can make their own mind up about religion when they grow up...

814 replies

AliGrylls · 07/04/2011 12:05

Okay I have just read this on another thread but this is a statement I hear quite a lot and want to ask the question.

If all you teach your child is atheism how will they make their mind up about religion when they grow up because they have no religion other than atheism?

They will know nothing other than what you have taught them so they have nothing to make their mind up about - they will be atheist, by default. If people genuinely want their children to make their own mind up they have to provide them with a reasonable alternative (ie, Judaism / Christianity / Islam).

I don't actually know any adults who have been brought up atheist who have thought all of a sudden "I believe in God, I am going to go to Church".

OP posts:
MIFLAW · 08/04/2011 01:16

"If you don't believe these things, I don't see why you would lie to your DCs. All you can do is tell them what you believe, a brief outline of what others believe, and move on."

WHAT IS WRONG WITH "I DON'T KNOW"?

Sorry for shouting but no one from the religious camp seems keen to answer what is a very simple question.

MIFLAW · 08/04/2011 01:18

I am an agnostic atheist; agnostic in that I lack faith; atheist in that, while I wait for evidence, my default position is that there is no God, as this seems to be where the balance of evidence lies.

Particularly in the case of life after death, the hoops one would have to jump through to make it fit with logic and probability would eem to me to demean a person of average intelligence.

But, if you feel able to convince me I am worng, I am of course open to that, as any thinking individual out to be.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 01:19

Because some of us enjoy deep, critical thinking maybe?

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 01:20

MIFLAW

Would you like there to be a God? Honest question

MIFLAW · 08/04/2011 01:23

"Because some of us enjoy deep, critical thinking maybe?"

As do I.

I do think it's beyond your average 3-4yo though and so, in those circumstnaces, I prefer to play safe.

I would imagine as well that you can accept that a position of self-avowed ignorance is a perfectly reasonable starting position to deep critical thinking.

And I bet, if you did start from there, and then engaged in deep critical thinking with a child insofar as possible, not one child in a million would reach the conclusion that we go to heaven when we die, or some other place if we've been a bad person, in which bad is defined as disobeyance of some faily arbitrary rules or non-adherence to a sect.

MIFLAW · 08/04/2011 01:25

It may be honest but it doesn't seem a very useful question. It's not like what I want is going to change it one way or the other.

Probably not, I have to say. But if I did, the LAST sort of God I would want would be the Christian one. He seems weak, inconsistent, spiteful and petty. Not what I would look for in a god at all.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 01:25

Im C&V my earlier post as I really dont think you read it:

Well she is only 4 so she hasnt asked a lot but my dc gets told by my me and DH

"No one knows for sure about x. Some people believe in y . Some people beleive in x. Some people don't beleive in either. What do you think?"

Bearing in mind her age it is very simplified. If she asks me which do you believe I will tell her but say "you need to think if you agree with mummmy but you have a long time to think about it"

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 01:28

It is a useful question. Some people want to beleive they just want convincing somehow.

Some people dont want a God at all.

Its very useful.

I dont know God in the way you describe him/ her. Its an old fashioned view

CheerfulYank · 08/04/2011 01:30

Oh, I do say I don't know. "I don't know for sure, but I think..." 'cause it's the truth. :)

MIFLAW · 08/04/2011 01:34

"I dont know God in the way you describe him/ her. Its an old fashioned view" - is it? This isn't the God described by Christ, "none shall come to the Father except through me" then? The God who we must seek to please, not because our actions are right and good in themselves, but because if not He will not reward us with various ill-defined "gifts" after death? Which God are you talking about?

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 01:39

All Jesus is saying is "if you want a realtionship with God you have to believe I am who I say I am".

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 01:42

The God who we must seek to please, not because our actions are right and good in themselves, but because if not He will not reward us with various ill-defined "gifts" after death? Which God are you talking about

It is not good works that buy you a place in heaven- made crystal in the bible

MIFLAW · 08/04/2011 01:44

Exactly.

WHY do I have to believe that? If God's primary reaction to me is love, why is he setting conditions on my access to that love? I have unconditional love for my children, I cannot imagine ever setting conditions on whether or not they can have a relationship with me. Yet God is the father par excellence. Why is his relationship with his children more demanding than mine with my children?

Sorry, but that sounds like a load of old bollocks. The Christian God puts me in mind of a child who only lets other kids play with his football if they say they like his ideas. It is not, in my view, the basis for a way to live an adult life.

Anyway, bedtime now. Good night all.

MIFLAW · 08/04/2011 01:46

So if I rape and murder but do not repent I will have a place in Heaven solely on the basis of my acknowledging God as the Father and Christ as my saviour/

If that's wrong, then we're back with the good works; and if that's right, that sounds bloody silly, and I would be actually ashamed if a blood relative of mine subscribed to such tosh.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 01:47

You don't have to believe it. Thats the point. You have the faith or you don't ( freewill).

God does not love on conditions- the message is about a realtionship; if you have faith, you have a realtionship

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 01:48

So if I rape and murder but do not repent I will have a place in Heaven solely on the basis of my acknowledging God as the Father and Christ as my saviour/

Nope. It is made clear you have to repent.

onagar · 08/04/2011 01:55

When people speak of an old fashioned view of god I'm reminded that the story gets changed continuously to suit the times. Eternal truth until the next revision. Also I've not forgotten that those who disavow the old testament also try to use it as proof that Jesus was god. A position that is not even internally consistent.

I see that like all these threads we have religious people who can't distinguish between teaching about religion which is fine and compulsory worship which is not. You'd think after they have been told a dozen times in each of these threads they would have grasped it by now. It's not exactly rocket science is it.

Another inconsistency is that those who say that compulsory worship is morally acceptable because the kids will not be affected by it then scream at any suggestion that we stop it. If they truly believed it had no effect they wouldn't care. Which means they were being dishonest all along.

Ignorance and dishonesty. The hallmarks of religion.

And hate of course.

for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 02:07

I have seen far more ignorance and hate in some the atheists posts (though a small minority)

I think the religious responses are generally respectful, neutural, placid and non-aggressive.

onagar · 08/04/2011 02:11

Are you for or against compulsory worship for other people's children?

Roseflower · 08/04/2011 02:13

Agaisnt. Seems pointless.

seeker · 08/04/2011 06:01

People of faith are of course in a free country perfectly entitled to bring them up in their faith.

They have 24 hours a day to do this until the child is 5, then 18 hours a day on weekdays and 24 hours a day at weekends to carry on doing this.

Schools should teach about different religious faiths as a subject - of course they should. It's interesting and important.

But schools should not teach children to practice Christianity - or any other faith.

This distinction - between "learning about" and "opracticing" is one that seems to escape pratically everyone on threads like this - people say "But it's an important part of our heritage" or "Children need to know about religion"

I agree. But they should not be expected to actually do it in school!

gorionine · 08/04/2011 06:33

My Mum is a fervant RC, my Dd is an atheist. I grew up in a coutry vere RE lessons were really religious lessons about the Bible, Prophets..., absolutely no openess on other religion, when they were mentioned in school, it was to criticise them.

At home though my parents had a variety of friends from different places and as both my parents were very involved in Amnesty International and assylum seekers associations I was very young aware that there were different cultures and religions (somhow it had no affects on my siblings).

We were raised as RC, my dad was not annoyed as it made my Mum happy and TBH we were too.

When I grew up though I moved in a shared house with several Muslims and was fascinated. Even though I had up to that point been a reasonably happy RC (questioning a few things but not desperately seeking something else) after a while I did choose to convert to Islam myself. I guess what I am trying to say is that IMHO it does not really matter if you have been told about other religions or not when a child, maybe faith is something to do with fate as well as personal choices?

skybluepearl · 08/04/2011 06:49

i think it's nice that kids hear the parabels and other stories from other religions as there is alot that can be taken from the meaning. I'm not keen on over the top churches etc though. they verge on being cult like and over whelming.

larrygrylls · 08/04/2011 07:09

Atheism is a religion. Agnosticism is the only logical position to take. How can we know whether there is a god or not?

Where I really struggle is in traditional religion's belief of what god would be like. He seems awfully too much like us! I think that, if there is a god (for want of a better word) or a higher form of consciousness, he/it would be as comprehensible to us as our thought processes to a pygmy shrew.

I think "lying" is an awfully loaded word in relation to what we teach children. I teach my son that a whale/dolphin is a big fish because I feel that, at 22 months, he is far too young to get the distinction between fish and mammals that happen to look like fish and swim. I don't think that is "lying". In the same way as A level physics students (such as there are these days) are taught that Newton's laws are "true" because relativity and quantum physics can be introduced later. So, whether you go down the route of "we believe in no higher power" or "we believe in jesus/mohammed/moses etc" is of little consequence as long as it is not pushed too hard to the exclusion of other thoughts (or of thinking for yourself) and as long as other alternative belief systems are introduced when they become age appropriate.

BetchaByGolly · 08/04/2011 07:24

Atheism is not a religion. You are absolutely wrong.

Atheism is merely the assertion that there is no scientific proof of God.