in telling DS that God didn't make him, actually, I did.

[bintofbohemia]

(With some input from DH, obviously.) He's at a C of E school because we've recently moved and it was Hobsons Choice, C of E or Catholic. He's 4 and a half and started school at a really good, diverse, secular school, then we moved and he is now being taught that God is a man who made everything and he has to pray 3 times a day and is being taught god knows what else.

It just really irks me. What worries me the most is that yes, when he gets older he'll probably make his own mind up but that if he's being taught all this stuff as fact alongside his abc and numbers (which actually are real things) he's liable to find that he absorbs all this stuff and it becomes his default setting, IYSWIM. I'm not an atheist or anti Christian but I do have problems with faith schools and children being taught this stuff at such an impressionable age.

I'm tempted to pull him out of assemblies etc but I don't know if it's the right thing to do, and they'd still get him in classes anyway no doubt.

Anyone else have this?

bintofbohemia I was in a very traditional roman catholic school I can't really remember religious studies in primary but in secondary we were taught about other religions, mainly Jewish, Sikh and budhism it was never taught that these were wrong, we celebrated other religions festivals the only one that really sticks is traditional Jewish Passover where I was made to eat horseradish? Think it was a substitute for something?

seeker if it puts your mind at rest the daily prayers I remember from school (only one I remember is before meals) are very non specific not really about god
E.g:
Bless us lord as we sit together
Bless the food we eat today
Bless the hands that made the food
Bless us o lord
Amen

Not really offensive IMO
Hope this makes you feel a bit better re praying in schools.
Think it really just makes kids remember that someone has put some effort into their meal and they should show thanks for this.

springchicken do your kids not believe in Santa, tooth fairy etc

Children are much brighter than we give them credit for I think. Eventually he'll work out what he truly believes. I was raised Catholic and believed in it all until I was a teenager and then started questioning parts of it. Now as an adult I'm still Catholic but can see merit in lots of other religions.

In my child's school- primary- they can go for lessons in Catholicism, Judaism, Buddhism and non religious classes. They don't offer all the religions and lots of parents rotate their children around the classes. The kids love it and don't have any problem with conflicting beliefs.

A friend of mine sent her child to a Catholic school and her daughter really embraced Catholicism as I too did as a child. If you think about it from a child's perspective the whole thing is fascinating- stories of the ark, the sea being parted, changing water into wine, etc. What's not to love there?

Good luck with it all.

PS When my child comes home and tells me God made the world I nod in agreement and say yes, that's what we think but some people don't agree with us and that's ok. He seems to accept this argument.

I am an atheist married to a Catholic. DS (6) is baptised Catholic but goes to a non-Catholic school (we moved just before he started school and I did all the sorting - I did say that if DH felt strongly enough about it he could sort it out, but he clearly did not)

The state infant school that DS goes to does have 'Christian' assemblies, and links with the local C of E church - vicar goes in at Easter, Christmas etc. As far as I know he doesn't have to pray 3 times a day which seems a bit for a 4 year old, but he does come home regurgitating some stuff about God and babies and creation which I have explained to him that I don't believe in but that some people do. Like Daddy. And that lots of grown ups belive in different things but that being kind and thoughtful are things that everyone should do.

Fortunately, he is quite science minded (I am 7 months pregnant with DC3 and he told the class teacher that the baby grew from a seed that was already in Mummy's tummy and then Daddy put compost on it with his willy) and seems open to two sides of an argument which is a useful skill to learn.......

So unless you are unhappy with his overall education I would say grit your teeth through the religious stuff (can't say crap, as I vowed to DH's very lovely priest, now deceased, when we got married that I would not stand in the way of a Christian upbringing for our children) and make sure that he understands that there are many different beliefs in the world and that people are entitled to their own views etc.......

Oh, and in answer to your original question, YANBU!

LOL @ 'There is no such thing as a secular school in the UK'

There is also no such thing as a truly christian (eg bible believing) school that isn't private.

Our state schools are a wierd mix of atheistic teachings with a few of the more general and PC God beliefs thrown in for good measure, but mostly teach universalism (there are many routes to God) which is completely contrary to true christianity and the bible.

I think that's why so many are dissatisfied with the current state school system. The atheists don't like it, the christians don't like it. People who only vaguely have beliefs and don't object to anything are the only ones who are happy.

Unfortunately we have 3 options:

i) suck it up and deal with it
ii) pay for private
iii) home educate

I guess it depends on how strongly you feel about your beliefs.

Thank you EdwardorEric but I am a very experienced school parent and governor. I know what sort of praying takes place in schools.

I do find it offensdive that non-Christian children are expected to say stuff like":
Bless us lord as we sit together
Bless the food we eat today
Bless the hands that made the food
Bless us o lord
Amen.
Not because it is in itself offensive - of course it isn't. But why should non-Christian children have to take part in Christian rituals - however mild and watered down in order to take a full part in the life of a state, non fath school?

Gracie123 - and of course there shouldn't be schools paid for by the State that teach bible-believing Christianity. You're surely not suggesting there should be?

OP, a child in my DD's class was explaining the big bang to DD, and the classroom assistant said that the child was wrong because God made the world. This is in a non-church school.

As far as I have experienced, C of E primary schools are not much more religious than non-church schools. I wouldn't worry too much.

If a child has a strong cultural influence from home, then whatever culture is taught in school will have little impact on them as a child. When they get to be a teenager, they will start thinking for themselves, particularly if their home background has equipped them to do so.

How much paganism or other cultural information are you teaching your child? I think if you don't want your child to choose to be a Christian during childhood, you have to choose to include him in something else. It is all very well saying that children can choose for themselves when they are older, but they can't and won't live in a vacuum until then.

Sorry just didn't think it was particularly "Christian" to say thanks for our food which is basically the point.

I wouldn't object to my child being taught Islam, Jewish or any other religion as long as it was not extremist in any way.
I believe that to develop a truly diverse and tolerant society we need to teach and understand all religions at very least on a basic level

As I said in previous posts despite my upbringing, I don't particularly believe in god per se or a lot of catholic teachings, interestingly my priest has openly agreed with me regarding catholics views to women homosexuality abortion etc etc.

EECD, this is offtopic, but I read recently some US stats that showed US Catholics were more likely to be accepting of homosexuality than both other Christians and the population of the US as whole.

Saying "thanks for our food" is one thing . Saying "Thank you Lord" is quite another.

How about a "prayer" of thanks to the people who really made our food. Thanks to the farmers, thanks to the labourers in the fields, thanks to the transport companies who flew it all in from Spain and Morocco. Thanks to the school chefs, dinner ladies for cooking our food. Thanks to the geologists who found the oil, coal and gas deep under the ground that powers the power stations which provide the electricity to cook our food.

God gets all the credit for everyone else's hard work. Thanking him devalues the efforts of human beings.

I like the idea of giving thanks. I think there's a lot about it (all the praying and religious stuff) that is actually really positive, and that people would be happier in general if they stopped, took stock, said thank you, etc. I just think, like seeker and Snobear say, that it could be a general sort of thanks rather than specifically to god.

Do you think we'll see the day where we have a secular state? I was caught a bit of a debate the other day about de-godding the coronation rituals which seems to be a sensible idea. Can we not just have a god free state, god free schools and god free government and let individuals take responsibilty for their own spiritual growth (or the lack of?)

I'm not fussed about DS believing in Father Christmas and the Tooth Fairy, as neither of these imaginary friends are associated with sexism, homophobia or genocide. Though I expect DS will grow out of them shortly. I am mainly concerned that he doesn't get fed the idea that Christian mythology is more true than any of the other mythologies.

I am enjoying your posts, Snobear. Think you're spot on.

The thing I still struggle with, at my advanced age, is how anyone rational could believe that their religion was any more 'right' than any other. Doesn't the mere existence of so many creation myths and supernatural being myths around the world in the course of history illustrate that? So, while not believing in anything numinous myself, I can just about reconcile myself to the idea that some people believe in a general 'life force' which has not been scientifically explained, but really can't get that people believe in different elaborately constructed stories as 'truth'.

I was really put off a local well regarded C of E secondary because they started the parents' information evening talk with a prayer.

But you do realise that Christmas is a Christian holiday to celebrate the birth of Christ
I think it's a bit hypocritical to on one hand say that religion is wretched superstitious crap, then admit that you do celebrate some religious festivals, I assume you have a special dinner and give presents to celebrate Christmas

Honestly, EdwardorERic, pagans were celebrating midwinter festivals - yule, Easter (the clue's in the name) etc long before Christianity came along.

Decorated trees, mistletoe and holly, feasting, eggs, bunnies, all part of a long pre-christian tradition.

Christians do not have the monopoloy in celebrating the midwinter or spring festivals.

PerpertuallyPg, Oblomov and Parmallama - there are loads of rural areas in this country where the only primary schools for miles around are CoE village schools. If people have to move for work, you may have no choice but to move to an area where there is no choice at all.

EECD, I call Thursday Thursday, but I am not actually a pagan, I don't believe in Thor, and I don't wear a hammer necklace or carry a sword at all times just in case I get knocked down by a bus without a sword in my hand and cannot enter valhalla.

I call it Thursday because it is part of the culturally pagan tradition of the UK.
I celebrate the cultural elements of Christmas because it is part of the culturally Christian tradition in the UK.

It has nothing to do with believing in a religion.

@ MillyR

I think it is wrong that you don't have a non-religious school to attend in your area (I presume you have tried to find one through the local admissions officer).

I personally preferred my children's CoE school, yes, they came home saying 'mummy, why did God make the world?' but that gave us lots of opportunity to discuss different creation stories and read about the Big Bang and talk about who in our family believes in God and why. The school itself had a wonderful ethos of being very inclusive and kindness was valued enormously. They have since moved to a non-religious school and I don't think it has the same ethos at all and the discipline issues and so on are quite bad.

Perhaps it was nothing to do with the religious aspect, but I would be happy for mine to attend a C of E school, I felt the christian values were a firm foundation on which to build school ethos. Of course, being kind or inclusive are universal values, but I thought the way the school taught religion and being religious tapped into and supported them very well.

I had a good experience, you are not, but unless you are prepared to move schools, I don't think complaining to a Christian school that they are teaching Christian beliefs is going to get you very far.

It is very much a matter for debate whether Christianity is indeed a fountain of tolerance and inclusivity. Personally I have experienced it as the opposite, that's why I'm so enthusiastic about atheism, and why I would hate to send my children to a church school. I don't want them experiencing the legitimised intolerance that many organised religions exhibit.

Bintofbohemia -

good luck tonight at the parents evening. tell us how it goes.

My advice would be make sure you don't say 'indocrination' etc.. be super conciliatory and talk about 'I feel...' rather than 'you are...' etc... The teachers/head will always defend their practices and staff as a first response, and the more critical you are the more defensive they will be.

That said, it may be that the head and/or some of the teachers are at the school for the same reasons as you - because they like the school itself, and the religious bit is just part of the heritage - upheld more by the governors and the ongoing relationship with the village vicar (particularly as the infant school is his captive market - the community junior school wont have quite so much religion).

You may find that they quite like to have a parent who will give a different view, so they can push back on the powers-that-be a bit (they may not of course, but don't necessarily assume that they actively support this approach rather than go along with it because for example the vicar has always come into school and done weekly assemblies and no one has pushed to change it, or challenge the way it is done).

In my DS's community school the vicar does come in and do assemblies but he says 'this is a prayer that some Christians like to say. Perhaps you might like to listen to the words and think about them" which he has obviously been coached to say by someone instead of "let us pray"!

Try to be helpful. ask to see the RE and collective worship policies, and ask whether they survey parents on entry to know what % are christian what % are other religions are what % are not religious. Say that if the school are ever reviewing their policy you would be happy to be on the parents committee etc...

You probably wont have time to have all that much discussion about this tonight as you'll want to talk about the stuff that matters more about your child and school, but you could always mention it and ask for a follow up meeting with the Head.

"I think it is wrong that you don't have a non-religious school to attend in your area (I presume you have tried to find one through the local admissions officer)."

She won't. There aren't any.

I'm not saying that you can't celebrate festivals pagan Christian or otherwise because you don't believe in them by all means do what you like,
What I was saying was hypocritical is to call said beliefs "wretchedsuperstitiouscrap"
using language like that when referring to a religion wether it be Christian Islam or Jedi is offensive and ignorant and does not promote a tolerant understanding society.