in telling DS that God didn't make him, actually, I did.

[bintofbohemia]

(With some input from DH, obviously.) He's at a C of E school because we've recently moved and it was Hobsons Choice, C of E or Catholic. He's 4 and a half and started school at a really good, diverse, secular school, then we moved and he is now being taught that God is a man who made everything and he has to pray 3 times a day and is being taught god knows what else.

It just really irks me. What worries me the most is that yes, when he gets older he'll probably make his own mind up but that if he's being taught all this stuff as fact alongside his abc and numbers (which actually are real things) he's liable to find that he absorbs all this stuff and it becomes his default setting, IYSWIM. I'm not an atheist or anti Christian but I do have problems with faith schools and children being taught this stuff at such an impressionable age.

I'm tempted to pull him out of assemblies etc but I don't know if it's the right thing to do, and they'd still get him in classes anyway no doubt.

Anyone else have this?

I really wouldn't worry. My primary was C of E but seemed to bang on an awful lot about religion.

I remember coming home one day and telling my mum that God was my father. She made a cat's bum face and said that my dad was my father.

I don't remember it bothering me one way or another. Enjoyed all the Christian stuff like nativity plays and some of the hymns are quite stirring. I took the view at a very young age that there might be a God, there might not, but most of his followers seemed very silly and hypocritical indeed, so I just wasn't interested.

I am now a life member of the British Humanist Association.

Fears of brainwashing at school are very overrated. It is at home where the damage is done, it is at home where children pick up racism, homophobia etc, etc. School friends are pretty influential, but the school itself? Nah.

Grimma fill his head with reality is the best advice i have ever read on here. thank you.

I'm laughing at the idea that the OP should have just moved near a school she liked - because it's so easy for everyone to do that!

Or just send him to private school, or give up your job and home ed. What? You mean you don't have endless bags of money?

yes Rita, she should have just researched a little better, then she could just have simply chosen to live right next to the school she liked right? Because we can all afford to make those choices can't we?

You could at least introduce him to the idea of critical thinking, his school obviously isn't. On the other hand have you told him the truth about santa and the tooth fairy?

or simply just take him out of school and put him in another one - problem sorted

because the LA won't be on your back asking how your child is being educated, and the other local schools won't be just the same and/or oversubscribed

anybody watch the news recently? what was the shortfall in London alone, 8,000 was it?

some very good advice on this thread regarding the religious education element but c'mon lets get real about the OP's choices here please

Hey OP, I went to Catholic school all throughout my formative years and am now agnostic. But you are right about the default mindset, it is very hard to shake and can become very ingrained even if you don't like it.

Not sure if its any help but both of mine got into God and Christianity in Reception inspite of attending a very mixed state primary and having atheist parents.
DS is in the middle of his Creationist phase at the moment which, given that he has a Muslim teacher and an 8 yr old scientist for a sister, makes for very interesting discussions at meal-times :)

I can understand your concerns but if everything else is fine at school I'd just continue to offer a balanced view at home and see how he goes.

Even if the OP could find an alternative to the present one, it still would not be fully secular. Every state school has to have its 'collective act of worship'. Which varies enormously, but typically will have hymns, many of the 'All things bright and beautiful' ilk, in which some sort of Creator God is drip-fed, and prayers which make it pretty clear that the teacher leading assembly think there's something there to be prayed to.

It probably won't result in many ardent born-agains, but I suspect it contributes to the 70% of the population in the last census who ticked 'Christian' even though vastly fewer attend churches. And so it contributes to the maintenance of the status quo, faith schools evermore, Bishops in the Lords....

Perhaps Oblomov thinks everyone who finds this objectionable should emigrate?

I would talk to the school. Not necessarily to pull him out of assembly etc.. But just to let them no how you feel, ask them at what stage they will start teaching that some people believe other things, and many don't believe in any of it.

CoE schools are not (like Catholic, Jewish, Muslim schools) set up for a particular religious community. They are largely a historical legacy of the fact that the first free schools were set up for the children of the parish at a time when almost everyone was nominally christian.

Not that it will necessarily change much, but they should at least know that parents (particularly if it is the only school around) don't subscribe to this belief system or feel comfortable with this level of indoctrination. Don't put up and shut up.

What's funny about these threads is that, without fail, they are littered with people complaining about their Christian upbringing, what a load of nonsense it was and how they were delighted to turn their back on it. So why is it then that the op (in all of the threads not just you bint) is so concerned that their child is being brainwashed when there is so much anecdotal evidence to the contrary?

If you listen to the majority of people on mn, most of them decided it was a load of old toffee by secondary school at the latest. I'm sure your ds thinks that Peppa Pig or somesuch is the greatest thing to walk the earth at the moment but he'll grow out of it.

Disclaimer: I'm Catholic so a different kettle of fish but the above is my observations on this topic

Also, what Grimma said - get him plenty of reality based knowledge at home.

"The Story of Everything" is an excellent (pop up!)book that starts with the big bang and ends with us reading the book.

Morning - hurray for the sane cavalry!

Himalaya, Parents' evening tonight, will definitely talk to them about it, you're totally right about the indoctrination. Like LDNmummy says, it's the thought of it being ingrained.

I'm sure he'll find his own way - it's just that this is new ground for me (PFB's first year in school ) and it reallly does make me uncomfortable, the certainty and conviction with which he's telling me what god did. Why they're telling a four year old god died to save him is beyond me.

feetheart - that's really interesting - I guess they try out allsorts but at least he's got other factors there to balance it out. I really enjoy the whole philosophical and religious debate myself, but there's not much debating to be done with DS right now. He has "seen the light".

Cheers everyone for the sensible advice.

I was brought up catholic, prayers 3x per day etc living by gods will etc! I'm now 24 I was married in catholic church and have had my son baptised. But from a very young age probably about 14 I have always recognised that "god" and the "church" are very different to me the church is there to repress women and dont do anything to change that even in this day!
I believe in some kind of afterlife not sure what though.
I believe in evolution as how we came to be.
But I will also tell my children about the bible and parables within because I believe they teach good morales and ethics specifically new testament.
I was also told about other religions in school but not in very much depth, I too will be sending my son to faith school but will make it clear that what he's being taught is one belief there are others or none at all and he can believe what he wants.

With regard to them being taught about other religions at faith schools, am not quite sure how it works. Do they come at it from the standpoint: "this is what the poor foreign heathens believe, but what we believe is the truth?" My mother was telling me about a song they used to sing at church school back in the 50's, about the poor brown children overseas who don't know about God yet.

I object very stroungly to my child praying at school. Which they do. In all State schools. It is a statutory requirement that all schools should have daily collective worship that is broadly Christian in nature.

I do not think that it will brain wash them, or turn them into Evangelical Christians or anything. I just do not wish somebody else's fait to be imposed on my family. Christian people have the opportunity to pray, their children can pray at school if they want to (as Musling children can). But I do not have the opportunity for my children not to pray.

I think it is very important that they learn about Christianity, and about all the other Faiths. I just do not want them to actually pracitice a faith.

And don;t get me started on compulsory RE in Secondary schools. They can drop History, MFL, only do one science - but they have to do RE.

Oh God bint, you just reminded me of the "Venn Diagram of Truth" the nuns delighted in teaching children in my school. Naturally the Catholics were at the centre (being the one true faith and all that ) and the heathen Hindus and Budhists on the outer ring. Athiests, naturally, resided in hell.

bint, really, really don't worry. Four year olds are always 'telling' you things in very solemn voices, things that are 'really true'. That is just what they do.

Probably for the first time in his life he is spending large amounts of time away from you and hopes to impress you with his new found 'knowledge'.

My six year old is often 'telling' me things which range from the ludicrous to the quite concerning. My default response is 'o that's interesting' unless it is something that could cause her physical harm in which case I give her a steer. My friend's 5 year old boy spent almost two hours over the weekend 'telling' me about his magical electrical stick and all the amazing things it can do. I am sure at the time of telling he really believed it. I am equally sure he won't still be talking about his magic electrical stick when he is 25, unless something has gone horribly wrong. Even if the school dedicated several hours a day to magical stick worship.

Exactly what seeker said. No objection to others beliefs, just why does it have to be the default. Why can't non-faith be the default with believers to do as they wish otherwise? Especially now we have so many different beliefs anyway

Well I guess I do know why and it's hard to change thousands of years of history overnight.

Here in Germany they start school at age six, and from the beginning they have two-three hours of religous studies per week until they finish school. The religion is either Catholism or non-catholic christian depending on the region. If the child is not baptised then the lessons are in "ethics" which seems to be the almost the same but a different name.
Three hours a week! And taught by the local priest...

However, my german husband is german says that despite his schooling he is only Catholic because his parents are, and they didn't have to pray. He didn't see the problem with so much time being devoted to religous studies at school until I objected.

I wonder if he's taking it so seriously because he's trying to fit or join in so he stops feeling like the new boy?

If it's not religious facts it's pokemon or scooby doo facts. They do learn to make their own minds up whatever you tell them. They just like to tell you what they've learned doesn't mean when they're 20 they'll still accept everything they were ever told as fact.

OP, I've just had the opposite happen. DD (nearly 6) was at a CofE school for a year, then moved to a non-church school. While at the CofE school, she used to say she believed in God. Dh and I are atheists and told her that we didn't believe, but many people do, and that she was of course free to believe what she wanted. To my surprise, she said to me in a very thoughtful voice the other day 'Mummy, when I was at my other school, I think they kind of made me believe in God, but I don't now'.
I was a bit at her thinking about it on that level, aged 5, but I'm not sure whether to feel a bit bothered that it was obvious even to her that it was being 'forced' on her, or to be relieved that she's come to her senses so quickly! I'm not sure what point I'm trying to make really, but I guess they change their views about things all the time at that age.

"I'm laughing at the idea that the OP should have just moved near a school she liked - because it's so easy for everyone to do that!

Or just send him to private school, or give up your job and home ed. What? You mean you don't have endless bags of money?"

Thanks Ritamorgan. Exactly what I was thinking. How presumptuous to snidely say, well, you should just drop your job to move to another area or do home schooling. How arrogant. People should have a choice to send their kids to a non-denominational school, everywhere in the country. Which of course will never happen. One reason for this is that to send their children to the only performing school in the area, many atheist or non-CofE parents have to attend church and even baptise/christen their kids. This falsely inflates the numbers of officially Christian people in the population, giving the churches leverage to say, well, X percent of people in this area are Christians so we could not possibly discriminate against them by building a non-Christian school here.

I would urge all non-Christians who are registered as believers to opt-out. I do not know how to do it other than to have declared no-religion in the census, but this looks like fun and is as good a place to start as anything:

www.secularism.org.uk/debaptise-yourself.html

There is no such thing as a proper secular state school in the UK. There is no escaping at least a percentage of the school week being taken up by this wretched superstitious crap. I deliberately chose a non-faith school for DS, but they have some knob of a vicar popping in all the time - had a discussion with DS the other night when he wanted to know if god was watching him.
So I explained that there are lots of gods and goddesses, then he wanted to know what gods and goddesses are, so I told him that they are special invisible people in stories, and some people think they are real but there's no evidence for that, and left it there for the moment.
And I make no apologies for telling my DS that there is no such thing as a god. If I was enough of a buckethead to believe in one and have a tribal allegiance to one or other mythology brand, and chose to tell my DC that the myths I had chosen were really true, no one would bat an eyelid.