To have been a bit judgy about these people at a baptism?

[JaneS]

There was a baptism as part of the Sunday service this morning. A group of people came, dressed up in sort of posh party clothes, whom I've never seen at church before and who clearly weren't familiar with the structure of the service. Now, I can understand why you might as an occasional church-goer still have some attachment to baptism as a ceremony and want to go through with it, or you might feel it's a nice social occasion and a good opportunity to get dressed up. That is understandable. But AIBU to have felt a bit upset that these people chattered the whole way through the service - not just mum and dad quieting the baby, before you ask, but all of them chatting to each other and not even pretending to listen to the normal bits of the service? I suspect I am going to get flamed here, but would you feel a bit upset if this was your church that you took seriously?

I hear you LRD

I get this in synagogue, whenever there's a bar mitzvah. The chattings, not great, but I don't mind too much as people chat during the service anyway (it's bound to happen - it's three hours long) and if you get too rowdy either the rabbi gives you A Look (including the old ladies ) or bangs on the bimah (place where he stands). What I do mind is people chatting/standing up/making noise during important bits (at one recently the ladies at the front told someone off who was faffing about, and she still faffed about) and the inappropriate dress (like one footballers wife who turned up in giant knickers and a see through mini-dress. It's a religious service for goodness' sakes woman, not a nightclub) and the fact that the whole place becomes filled with hormonal pre-teens and early teens.

But, they have as much right as I do; they're there as guests of someone, or part of the family. I just go to town on the buffet afterwards to compensate and leave the older ladies to scold them and get them in line. (there was an AWESOME 95 year old woman at my old synagogue who felt no shame at telling people off. Including the rabbi)

YANBU to be annoyed by the talking.

The church I normally go to has a number of baptisms and for various reasons the the parents are generally not regular attendees. Whilst most are very well behaved a few aren?t. My favourite was the time where a godfather arrived 20 mins into the service (half way through the actual baptism), joined the baptism party, 30 seconds later his phone rang loudly and he answered it at the font. It then rang again 10 minutes later.

God will get his own back on these vulgarians.

I panicked at th eop thinking this was us then read on. My ds3 was christened at our local church on sunday but I dont think we talked all the wa through apart from ds3 who was quite vocal and we wore normal smartish stuff.
I don't go to that church normally as it's very high Church plus my husband wouldn't attned so I couldn't get there. I did want to get my child baptised into the church.
Op you're not in norfolk are you?

I've been to the church quite a few times and always thought that men have to take heir hats off but it's perfectly OK for a woman to keep her hat on. Not so long ago a respectable woman wouldn't be seen in public with her head uncovered. My grandma always had a stylish scarf on her head in church.

Women were supposed to keep their hair covered because Paul tells them to. but then Paul was human and pretty sexist in my opinion and times change. To be honest I don't think God would care what you wear as long as you go for the right reasons

I don't think they should have talked through the service as it is rude, the same way as if you went to the theatre.

Not all churches are stand up/sit down - that's usually Cof E do that. I'm at the moment going to a Cof E church but it was all new to me when I started as I had never been to one before, not properly anyway. The previous church I went to was very relaxed, mainly because there were hoards of young families there - we had breakfast on a big table outside the main hall and people wandered in and out with croissants etc and mugs of tea/coffee. Some people may hate that but it suited me (expecially the gorgeous breakfast ) - I just do enjoy being relaxed in church, like you're in someone's house (which you are, actually....) and not feeling I have to mind my p's and q's. Each to his own on that one though. What I do mind with a passion is when churches become like social clubs and don't have an eye out for people who are new. I've been to a few where people literally shrieked across my face to a friend they hadn't seen in a while, totally ignoring me when I was standing there like a pillock and didn't know a soul. I think they're missing the point of church when they do that and it makes me so SAD that somneone may have plucked up the courage to go but the church was so unfriendly they never went again. Awful.

YANBU on the talking it was rude.

However I feel you are being unreasonable on the comments about people who had not been there before. For all you know the could live hundreds of miles away. You have to admit it would be silly to pass that many churches ad travel that far every Sunday for the Sunday service.

If they are local or just moved to the area and looking for a church there is a good chance they will never return if they meet attitudes like that. When I had to leave my old church it was comments like 'Oh, you've not been here before, what are YOU doing here' that put me off ever going back. I would just like to note both my cleavage and knees were covered and I DID not talk through the service.

I was at a church wedding recently, and there were children permitted to run up and down, and one little girl (aged about 4) had a bag of crisps....which spilled on the floor. Many of the guests came late - actually after the ceremony had started - and made a huge noise and a fuss getting sat down. One of the women wore a long white dress (WTF?). I'm not a believer, but I did judge these people for not having respect for the bride and groom, whose day it is!

The bride was upset (these people were on the groom's side).

My church does baptisms seperately so people don't have to sit through a mass. It was much better for me as a couple of my guests have never been to church. I would have felt a bit bad asking them to sit through bells and smells.
The chatting is a bit rude but I did get the giggles myself yesterday when DD fell and rolled under a pew. So no better myself

I might have been tempted to throw out a SHHHHHH! but really, if the vicar's not asking them to settle down a bit, there's only so much you can do.

It's getting a bit 'chicken and egg', reading through the posts.

Yes, a congregation should be warm and friendly to those who turn up for the first time. But if someone showed up to something I really valued and then proceeded to chat all the way through, I'd be feeling less than charitable by the end. You can affect people's desire to approach you by your own actions. If you want to be made to feel welcome, because you may be thinking about returning, surely you observe the conventions rather than ignore what everyone else is trying to do?
There's a difference between someone on their own, plucking up the courage to go along and feeling a bit ignored (been there, and eventually resorted to walking up to the nearest group of people and saying 'I don't know anyone. Can I join you?' Not nice to do) and coming along with a group of people, chatting amongst yourselves and spoiling the day for others.
So which came first? These people doing the chatting and as a result annoying everyone else, or everyone else spotting them, deciding on sight they disliked them and leaving them no choice but to chat amongst themselves as they didn't feel welcome.

FWIW, I'm struggling to see how you'd make someone feel welcome during a service when you are either quiet or joining in rituals. Before, maybe, as long as you are not like me and running in with seconds to spare. Afterwards, for sure. But during?
And if you are looking for a church to attend, would you really choose the baptism of your child to make your first visit? If you go to church regularly, wouldn't it be important enough to you to visit a couple of times first to make sure the church was right for you?
Again, I'm not religious but I don't see my atheisity (my new word!) as an excuse to be rude when others who do believe are trying to worship.

blackeyedsusan - I'm with you on the clothes. But I do think that some rules do matter - church is about listening to what the vicar says, isn't it? So you don't talk in those bits. Otherwise it's a bit of a free for all. And surely the point of having a range of churches is so that everyone can find something that suits them? So some might be a bit more happy clappy then others. If you like that, then those are the churches you go to. If you prefer something longer and more serious in tone, you choose that church instead.

I understand what you mean about the church altering what they do when new people come along but I just don't think I agree. If I went along to an established event, I'd expect to have to go along with it, and be quiet in the right places! If I didn't enjoy it, I'd simply think 'Not for me' and try something else. I wouldn't expect everyone to fit everything round me, when they have chosen to go there because it does suit them. Horses for courses. It's not at all the same as not being welcoming.

It's a case of who do you prioritise? The people who come week on week and do so because it's important to them and they like the way things are done? Or the people who showed up this morning? Snd then can't even keep quiet for a bit? I read the OP's post as annoyance at their behaviour afterwards, not as an attack on new people daring to show up. The clothes - well, again, I read it as just something else to latch on to because their behaviour was so rude. I'd have done the same - if their behaviour had been more respectful of everyone else there, then I doubt the clothes would have been an issue.

blackeyed, short of mind-reading, how do you suggest we include people? It is a real problem I know - but people were making an effort, smiling at them, smiling at the baby, everyone coming to say hello during the peace - they just didn't choose to respond or show respect.

It's possible if we'd all had the foresight to show up in trendy clothes and with Grazia under our arms, they'd have preferred that - but isn't that a bit of a stretch to be 'inclusive'?

xstitch, I've said at least twice now that I have no problem with people who don't come regularly showing up. It's nice. I commented on them not having come to our church before because it's relevant to them obviously not knowing what to expect. But most people who turn up and don't know what to expect manage to be polite, that's the point. They turned up, found it wasn't what they expected, and chose to be rude. If they'd come to another service maybe they'd have had some warning, but they shouldn't need to have done that to work out chatting through when everyone else is being silent isn't respectful.

bronze don't worry, it's not you! The baby was very quiet (amazingly so), and from past experience vocal babies make everyone smile, so you'd have got a lot of attention from us.

Some churches don't make an effort to make people feel welcome but in my experience a lot do.

Our church have toys at the back for young children, Sunday school is open to any older children who want to go. The wardens make sure parents don't feel they have to keep babies and young children quiet and not to worry if they cry etc. Last week Ds (16 months) was sat with the vicar while he did the intercession and nobody had a problem with it!

AbsDuCroissant Your synagogue sounds like lovely to me . Reminded me that I really need to find a new one (the one here closed a while ago as everyone has moved away, but I get so nervous going to new ones, worry I'll faff up, the kids will go berserk, and cause a thread on MN ).

LRD- hes almost 2 two so it wasn't just drying it was cheering whenever the organ started etc.
It was a lovely cosy service actually and our small group more than doubled the congregation. I wanted it to be part of the service because I think thats actually important for a baptism.

If you think chatting through a baptism is bad, you should see the shenanigans that go on during first communions around here.

(And the clothes, the clothes! Red leather dresses shouldn't be worn by OAP's. That is all I shall say)

I think the thing with going churches that you don't usually go to is to pretend you are not there, and be silent like a mouse, so no one notices you. Then you will not offend.

I see both sides too. I couldn't give a flying fig about what anyone wears to church, church is in its etymological sense a gathering, a community, people seeking and believing, and there shouldn't be a clothing code (though often is an unspoken one.)

Chatting...hmm. Yes, it is annoying, disrespectful, all that. But beyond that - people have come into church. Church should be open to all. It's not a club with an elite membership. It's for anyone, mutterers and crisp eaters included. So we have to think about how we can make it a welcoming experience for those that do come in.

We had 2 baptisms in our mothering sunday service, again people who are not church-goers. The service was all age and geared towards inclusivity, so all the words on the screen so no faffing with unfamiliar books, sermon not really a sermon, more a talk, question and answer, film clip etc. Stuff to engage people, which it did, the baptism party all got into it and didn't seem too uncomfortable. It felt informal and welcoming. Not saying yours wasn't LRD, I'm sure it was, it's just good to think through this stuff.

So I guess I'm saying YANBU and YalittlebitU too

it sounds like the congregation did their best to be inclusive sometimes it is the structure of the service itself that is the problem. when I have been to some coe churches ther is an aweful lot of reading, i don't rerad quickly, I hate reading out loud. people set of reading at a pace that is difficult to follow, especially if you are trying to read who is supposed to be reading that, then all of a sudden everone has turned over 5 pages and you've not got a clue where theyve gone. some places it is sit down stand up too, which can make you feel embarressed because you don't have a clue what is going on and no-one has explained. and the language is incomprehensible too.

people generally have a shorter attention span, are not used to reading out loud (have memories of being humiliated at school) and are used to a more visual appoach.. to be suddenly faced with something you don't understand and can't participate in, it is hardly surprising that people yield to temptation and chat to aunty mable who they haven't seen since last Christmas, or are having fits of giggles imagining why God wants to bless concorde and not a 747.

baptisms are going to have completely non church people so perhaps taking it slowly, missing out a bit of the reading and having the vicar explain each stage step by step would help. why not have a separate communion for those who want to stay and coffee in the hall for those who don't. then everyone gets what they want. visitors get to chat with aunty mable, have a few biscuits and don't feel so excluded. you get your communion in peace. You don't get stressed and glare and they don't get so glared at swearing they will never darken the doors of a church again.

I don't have a problem with people not being regular attenders (my attendance is often patchy). But when people are outright disrespectful (the flash photographer, the eye-rolling and tutting when the vicar is talking) then they are behaving rudely, and wrongly - there is no compulsion to be baptised, so they should not do it if they feel the need to undercut it at the same time.)