to believe that beyond all reasonable doubt

[OurBetty]

there is no god?

Creeped out? Because I notice you have been posting on this thread but not answering the direct questions I put to you? How on earth is that creepy?

And I don;t understand your last post. It makes no sense at all.

You make contradictory statements about me.

Oh wait I KNOW what going on. You dont want to answer me directly so you make out you don't get it. Yeah that must be it! All you atheits do that.

(Hmm. Sounds ridiculous doesnt it?)

"born into another culture, time or era you would be religious or have a belief?"

Quite possibly. Darwin was a believer, as the religious love to tell us. Proves nothing, apart from the fact that I am right about cultural conditioning of religion, and that there can't be any "one true god" while that obtains.

Atheism is not just another "belief" to be added to the list. It is a relatively new intellectual position. It's only taking the rest of the world a few centuries to emerge into a post-Enlightenment frame of mind...

UD the point is you could be different in your view point. The truth is you will never know. I will never know.

Im pretty sure atheist have always exsisted (well they did in the bible anyhow).

Really its all about being true to yourself. If you in your heart of hearts dont believe in God and thats what feel right for you that's great.

But others feel differently. It is not about catching up,intellect or englightment. It's about what really feels true to you.

I could no longer go back to going to church than I could unlearn French or start believing in Santa Claus again.

Monotheistic religion is currently popular, but it wasn't always. There will come a time when it isn't again. My point is that there have been so many different kinds of gods, and so many beliefs, across the centuries that there simply cannot be a single one which encompasses the "truth" and is THE god.

No coincidence that atheism is growing and will continue to do so. There was even a study this week that shows religion may die out in the 9 countries studied.

The fact we have searched for a god since the dawn of time, in the guise of different belief structures merly reflects human beings inherit predisposidition towards finding something greater- it how we have been designed. An inherent need to connect to our creator.

But we have got it wrong in the past about clearly idenifying God, hence the need for the Bible. To a majority of religious people it is the Abrahamic God that means something true to them.

In despite of everything people still beleieve in God- its pretty powerful.

I am sure atheisim is and will be on the rise. Maybe one day it will go full circle with all these parents forbiding their children from being religious Im sure a rebellion could even occur! Who knows?

Don't forget some people will say 'no religion' but that does not mean they dont beleive in anything- it means they are simply not religious.

It is far easier to be an atheist in modern society, especially as a young person.

But to me it doesn't matter if Im the only person left in the world who believes in God because I will never give up that belief.

All schools teach about religion which allows pupils to make up their own mind. A faith school is one that teaches you that one religion is true.

Oh and about those stats....

With a world population of about 6.7 billion and 2.1 billion Christians that means that 4.6 billion think Christianity is false.

It's worse than that really because the 2.1 billion christians includes groups that most 'right thinking Christians' would regard as non-believers.

Scientologus don't count do they? How about Mormons?.

1.1 billion are catholic so if you are not catholic you are in an even smaller minority.

By the time you have separated out all the different beliefs (Catholics can be broken down into their different beliefs too) each one is a tiny minority in a big world.

Never mind atheists disagreeing with you. For each of you we can find a thousand religious people who think you are talking nonsense.

Onagor very intrested to know how you know which particualr sect of Christianity I would idenify myself in. I mean, I can't really recall you asking?

Hmmm...

Oh and according to the stats that would mean 92% of the world think your talking nonscence.

Roseflower, read it again. I don't say which you belong to.

As for the 92%, you still don't get it do you. They are not one group on the same side and I am not claiming them as being on my side - you are.

1.2 billion in islam and they are sure that Jesus was not god and was not crucified or resurrected. Yet you and other religious people will count them as proof that your story is true.

It doesn't matter which group you belong to. There are billions of apparently sincere religious people whose faith tells them that you are wrong. The same people that you were using when you mentioned stats as support for your position.

Surely if that many people have faith that you are wrong they must be correct? or don't you think faith is a reliable guide?

You assume a lot.

Did I use the words they are on "my side". Well,did I?

Geez, what is with people reading things never said. I stated a fact from an source.

The point which you don't get is that if so many people believe in a creator there must be something in having faith, regardless of specific God. It wasn't oh "look at all these people on my side". Thats your own sensitivity.

It proves the power of faith that so many have a spiritual life.

The truth is 92% would think you are wrong for not believing in a higher power at all.

If Jesus in mentioned in the Qu'ran than it's evidence of his exsistance.

It matters not a jot to me which 'group' someones belongs to. They have a belief in a higher power and that's great. End of.

If they don't then jolly for them.

I couldnt care less if I was the only Christian left in the world. Infact I probably dont fit into any particular group anyway. But It's what I believe and what makes me happy.

Roseflower, I assume nothing. That's what being atheist is about. Having faith is about assuming without knowing.

Do you believe that faith leads people to the truth? if so those 1.2 billion Muslims who have faith that Jesus was just a man must be right yes?

Not to mention the gerontologists who have faith that you are full of lizards. They must be right too.

lol at gerontologists. That was Opera's spell-checker deciding that "scientologists" must be wrong.

Faith is a personal thing.

Faith is hope and trust.

If the Muslims choose to believe Jesus was man, not saviour then for the them personally yes that is right. Its the likely the same Abrahamic God so that's that.

I am free to believe what I like as is anybody. Just believe what feels true in your heart.

Since not one person on earth can say either way what is 'true' for sure, and we will probably and we may never know, then live it beleiving what makes you feel at peace and happy.

If you atheisim brings you the peace and happiness to live as well as you can then thats all that should matter to you.

This thread is understandably long, so i won't pretend i've read past the first ten or so posts.

However, I was watching, ok half watching that thing about the Old Testament last night, with the greek Dr with the huge boobs (dh always insists on watching for some reason, but i think she looks a bit like Sacha Baron Cohen. anyway...), and she put forward a very convincing argument for God's non-existence. Dont' know if anyone else has mentioned this yet, but to summarise:

Judaism is what Christianity and Islam rely on for their tradition of monotheism. In order to do this, all three religions point to old testament 'proofs' that there is only one, omnipotent God. However, if you actually study the original hebrew, it doesn't take long before you find scholars referring to God by the old Caananite names (the pagan gods so reviled by old testament prophets).

In fact the names are used interchangably; you can almost see an evolution of the idea of what God is: attributes formerly ascribed to male and female goddesses get absorbed into the character of 'the almighty', who himself seems to have evolved from the idea of 'El' or the father of the Canaanite gods. This idea that the Israelites, who founded all three monotheistic faiths worshipped only the one true god starts to seem quite laughable.

IntergalacticHussy You can find "evidence" for just about any point of view in the OT. if you're wily clever enough. Actually the most important thing about the OT for Christians is that it foretells the coming of Christ. In fact, its a tremendous record of fulfilled prophecies. We can't even predict the next hurricane or tsunami, but the OT accurately predicts the rise and fall of kings and empires.

This link clearly makes a nonsense of the claim for the OT above.

Intergalactic did you get that from it?

What i predominatly noted was that they showed evidence that Judaism, like Christianity, Sikhism, Hinduism (depending on your stance on which came first with Jainism) amalgamated itself with bits of teh indigenous culture and beleifs when it appeared and through it's evolution.

To be frank, is that news? The stuff about El was very interesting but mostly in a 'look everybody, Jadiasm is pretty much like all other faiths' way.

For me though the OT and NT are what theya re- interesting books that may have some nuggts of truth but which were edited by people with a very clear sense of what the book should teach and what they wanted you to get from it. In most ways I find what was left out more interesting and informative than what was left in. Love the Gospel of Thomas for example.

Am odd though. I possibly define faith in that I am absolutely certain so much is bunkum yet stillc annot shake that sense of guidance and the other. given up trying; so long as I use it as a positive force then heck, why not? Even my boys have been raised to decide for themselves.

UnquietDad You clearly haven't read the OT, much less studied it in any depth. I think I opened my last post with the comment "You can find evidence for just about any point of view in the OT if you're clever enough"? I shouldn't be surprised though, I suppose. Most of your posts show that you're either out of your depth or haven't read the post you are replying to accurately enough.

frantic - what gives you the right to assert with such certainty that I haven't read the OT?

You claim (without much evidence) that the OT is full of "accurate" prophecies. I offer counter-evidence that is is not. You deny that evidence. Hmmmm. Who is "out of their depth" here?

It's somewhat intellectually bankrupt that you are forced to use the old standby of a godder who has lost the argument: "You aren't clever enough to understand this Deep And Meaningful Shit, man."

You have religious faith or you don't. But no-one KNOWS if there is a god/s. People just believe they are right. Which is a kind of faith whether you're for or against. I think the ones who say they just have no idea are the most well balanced!

V. true crystal