to believe that beyond all reasonable doubt

[OurBetty]

there is no god?

There has been some interesting research done on our inate need to believe in meaning in things where there is no meaning. (sorry don't have a reference- just remembering a telly programme!) The research showed that children tend to try to see meaning in the world - even if this is illogical.

I was brought up in a very religious and "god-fearing" family - it was only once I started to question my own prejudices and why I believed what I did that I came to the realisation that there was absolutely no substance in the religious rubbish I was fed. The majority of people never question the culture they are brought up in - and are happy to continue that culture. Religion and God can give meaning to a lot of people - I however don't see a need for that meaning.

I didn't mean that, necessarily, UQD. I meant people who have been struggling with depression and/or addiction and have found meaning through religion; their own lives have been saved. I know a lot of them. As far as the "good works" thing goes I, I'm sure that if I were an atheist I would still do good things, at least I certainly hope so! :) But because I do believe in God I seek out good things to do. It's not for "brownie points", either, it's because I believe that we are called to help each other. It's not about being rewarded or punished.

Milly I read an interesting blurb in Rolling Stone about atheists/agnostics having more broad religious knowledge than people who actually believe. It doesn't surprise me; most people I know who are very religious don't care to learn about other religions (or lack of belief), which I think it a shame.

Gin, I think your post is very sensible. I subscribe to Thomas Jefferson's quote myself: "It matters not whether my neighbor says there are no gods or ninety gods, it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket." :) (I think I paraphrased a bit there...)

I really don't care, but I do get a bit irritated when I'm called stupid or crazy. I'm neither. If turns out there's no God, then delusional, maybe.

Oops. I'm not sure what that extra I, is doing in the first paragraph, and in the second I meant is a shame.

And when did we start being able to bold entire sentences?

I give up.

Well done Roseflower and altinkum: this is the first thread on this for a long time that hasn't descended quite as much as usual into the usual festival of insult and derision. Of course some tried their best, with the bollocks, and woo, and deluded, and daft, but then they'll always be incapable of stopping themselves. They don't seem be able to help it.

So no descent into insult and derision then Gooseberrybushes?

"the bollocks, and woo, and deluded, and daft"

There is absolutely no proof that God exists. therefore YANBU- and of course YANBU because you are entitled to beleive as you wish.
I do beelive in a concpt of God (not a standard one I admit) but acknowledge that I cannot prove this and it's a personal choice rather than something I should activelly expect everyone- or anyone- else to buy into.

My own path, or it would be if I could take my boys whcih I cannot, is the Quaker one which for me is a life path I would choose (and I guess did as was humanist until a few eyars ago) anyway; those that I know who follow very evagelical paths (a fair few, our school is chosen by many locally) seem far more closed minded and bigoted than the atheists and humanists I know in RL. I don;t care if someone beleives in a god, divine piglet or nothing at all as long as htey are neitehr bigoted nor deliberately unkind.

' I meant people who have been struggling with depression and/or addiction and have found meaning through religion; their own lives have been saved'

That's true of me: am absolutely happy toa dmit my faith has acted in part as a crutch through 2 SN dx's and whilst facing a possible third and even maybe fourth (we have four children).

And TBH, real or no, that's enough and I would be surprised if anyone would begrudge me that. I don;t think I have the personal stregth to have coped otherwise.

I do happen to have a wide knowledge of religions as I studied them at uni but am quite happy to be an anomally LOL

Aargh sorry doing thre many posts thing again- in my defence had to rush toddler to toilet in middle LOL

Agree with Milly; was raised atheist, education probably did give me choices. I'd formed ideas gradually but doing dissertatioin research helped me find a label iyswim.

Pepsi: I know, but that was mild compared to the sort of stuff that has been thrown about in the past, and it was limited to the usual posters who don't seem able to stop themselves from being insulting, patronising and scornful. I think many of the non-religious posters were more tolerant, humanly respectful, measured and interesting than usual. Do you think I'm wrong? Maybe I'm wrong. But these threads have been very unpleasant in the past and it's not, generally, the religious people making them so.

Sorry should I have put quote marks around those words? They came from the atheist and agnostic side, perhaps I should have said that.

Thank you Gooseberrybushes
Pepsipopcorn I think Gooseberryberry is reflecting on the insults that have already been handed out not actually 'starting' anything

"Religion is to reason what stone axes are to chainsaws."

This is the sort of thing that's unnecessary. It's plain from this thread that there are many quite rational and intelligent people of faith: and one must have a very limited and narrow life not to know that there are many rational and intelligent people in the wider world outside mn including mathematicians and scientists who are of some faith or another. In fact for some, their awareness of the wider scientific and physical world leads them in this direction. So it's a cheap insult, sort of lashing out and shows that the poster is here to be unpleasant, rather than contribute anything interesting.

Actually when people make these claims about reason and religion I wonder if they have ever read ay theology or philosophy at all, apart from maybe a review of Richard Dawkins.

Oh I see, misunderstood you Gooseberry - sorry!

Hope you all have a good week :)

Coffee all round?

' within developed countries atheism is correlated with higher scores on intelligence tests.
'
Isn;t tehre an entire thesis there? I mean, religious country is a big blanket- couldn;t women havinga ccess to education in certain Muslim countries, the religion in p0slces that don't have state education all be linked in without extrapolating anything about religion = lowered levels of reasoning?

Anyway, if I were living in a country with little food, no hope and a significant chance my child would die before me then I;d be a damned sight more likley to follow an established state faith and hope like hell tehre's an afterlife /s some rationale behind the state of my lie, than follow either atheism or one of the more liberal belief systems.

OTOH religion has a lot to do with promoting literacy in some palces (friend of a friend runs a school for street children in India motivated by- though not actively promoting- a faith). So it's swings and roundabouts and would probably end up with a very boring conclusion like my diss on Slavery (religion had a part in the inception, and the ending, but in both cases only as part of a wider picture... snore.....)

Oh and YY to coffee but when I get back from school run please? ta

SVC, yes I think there is a whole thesis in it.

There are two different issues. One is levels of education within developing countries, and the other is IQ in developed countries. IQ is a very different thing to education.

Depending on the type of culture you live in, the type of education that is desirable is going to be different. Going to a state institution school is not going to make someone a better hunter gatherer.

But if you live in a place that is any way industrialised, with a large and complex democratic system, that democracy can only really work if people are given the opportunity to have a basic level of education.

There are tribes where everyone believes in god and tribes where nobody believes in god, but in a democracy, you get exposed to a wider range of ideas and people have more opportunity to make choices other than those they grow up with.

If you are a "person of faith" what makes you believe your personal faith rather than any of the thousands of others on offer? Choice of god is a matter of cultural conditioning.

As for an "obsession" about creationism, none whatsoever. I'm happy to abandon it as contributing nothing to the debate whatsoever. But I would point out that I didn't keep bringing up "Intelligent Design."

I think if people were just kind to each other any god would be happy with that.

Cheerfulyank: "But because I do believe in God I seek out good things to do. It's not for "brownie points", either, it's because I believe that we are called to help each other."

That's exactly my point; I don't need God to "seek out" good things to do. This is what I find so arrogant about religion: it doesn't own morality! It doesn't have a monopoly on "doing good"! In fact, the truth is, it is used time and time again as an excuse to murder, rape and defraud on an appalling scale. Read Geoffery Robertson QC's 'The Case of the Pope: Vatican Accountability for Human Rights Abuse', then try to keep a straight face when you tell anyone how great that "church" is.

Oh, I didn't mean that spammywammy, I'm sorry to have come across that way! I just meant that it's in the back of my head (just me personally) every day what it is I need to be doing, which is helping others. I'm sure if I didn't believe in God I'd still do good things! It's just a part of my belief system that I should be looking for opportunities every day to help others. I never said (or at least didn't mean to imply) that religion owns morality somehow.

UQD I don't necessarily think my faith is better on average, it just seems to be better for me .

UQD

Could you define the thousands of gods just to be clear?

Roseflower, your wish
Is my command. A list of
Deities for you.

Haiku got there first, but I was going to post this one