to believe that beyond all reasonable doubt

[OurBetty]

there is no god?

I don't have a problem with accepting that some people say they are atheists when they are not, or when they are not quite convinced. Perhaps for those reasons, perhaps for others. But I don't think it happens all that often.

What is your obsession with creationisim? I think that was resolved quite a few posts ago.

I'm not talking just about war when I refer to the harm religion has done - I'm talking about the Catholic church protecting men who rape children, I'm talking about the church not condoning contraception in developing countries, I'm talking about religions who stone women to death for adultery, I'm talking about religions where people are locked up for not agreeing with it and then yes - I'm talking about wars. How is any of this delusional??? It's real - it happened and it continues to happen when people use belief in a higher power to justify their actions.

I'm also about how the bible (and other holy texts) can continue to be reinterpreted as facts are proved wrong. SO - everything in the bible is true - apart from the bits we know aren't, or the bits we disagree with???

There have also been many good things done in the name of religion, and many wars which have had nothing to do with religion.

and??? Your point is Pepsi?? That non-religious people can be evil too? I'd agree with you on that one, in the same way that you don't need to have any religious belief to do good or give you a moral compass.

ginmakesitallok what was your point in giving a list of the negative things for which people have used religion as an excuse? It shows that human beings make a lot of mistakes and have many faults, but it really doesn't argue one way or the other for the truth of a religion.

I have a friend who wears clothes of different threads. My problem is I don't know how god wants her executed. DH says she should be stoned, but I'm not so sure. Has anybody got any ideas?

My point was in response to a previous post which basically said that other people's faith was not anyone else's business - I think it is when that faith causes harm. I wasn't arguing the "truth" of religion, I was arguing that faith of others has an impact on those who don't share it.

Who says God believes in a religion? The hundreds of millions of people who follow religious teaching?

YANBU. I'm totally with you.

Roseflower: "Only 16% of people in the world are athiests, so there has to be something in it..." Yes, that's right. Most of the world are impoverished and illiterate.

There definitely is a dog. Several, in fact.

and cod... I'll give you the cod

Roseflower: "Only 16% of people in the world are athiests, so there has to be something in it..." Yes, that's right. Most of the world are impoverished and illiterate.

The sheer arrogance . Your obviously superior to 84% of the world. To 5 billion people.

Can you imagine if the stats quoted where about an age, disability, race, sex and sexuality and you said that particualr group of people where 'impoversihed and illiterate'.

Its called discrimination.

Oh dear, dear Roseflower! Nothing in my post was discriminatory whatsoever. I think if you look at research into this very subject, that there are correlations between religious belief and level of education. Unfortunately, that is a fact.

Whilst we're on the topic of discrimination, though, how do you explain faith school admissions criteria to parents of children of other/ no faith?

Age, race and sex do no correlate with poverty and literacy levels worldwide. That is the basis of inequality.

I don't know why there is a rogue 'no' in that sentence!

Wow, Roseflower, how can you move with so many straw men surrounding you?

If you geninely dont think what your saying is discrimination I suggest you have some serious thinking to do.

Yet you still by saying there is correlations between religous belief and levels of education!

Why I am not suprised again that this card is being played.

I will go an tell the orthodontist, doctor, science teacher, civil engineer, accountant, lawyer that I know have a faith that they are in fact illiterate.

For whats worth Im qualified in primary education and I can tell you it there is no valid finding relgion effects acheivment. If you did research based on publsihed findings the main factor is social-economic factors.

re religion v God debate - Rob Bell has addressed this here vimeo.com/10890559

Really? I'm not an expert on primary education but a quick look at google scholar has just come back with research that shows that countries with more widespread education have higher levels of education, and that within developed countries atheism is correlated with higher scores on intelligence tests.

higher levels of atheism, not education!

How on earth is it discriminatory to say that most of the world's population are uneducated and illiterate? It is very, very unfortunate, but it's a fact. And religion has perpetuated poverty in many African nations. Fact.

You are misreading my points. I didn't say that religious people were illierate. I didn't say any such thing and you know it. What I said was, was that there are distinct correlations between religious belief and levels of education. That has been shown time and time again.

"For whats worth Im qualified in primary education and I can tell you it there is no valid finding relgion effects acheivment." It's 'affects'. And 'achievement'.

I suspect it is more to do with education having an impact on religion, because education gives people a choice. If you were brought up as either an atheist or within a religion, and were not exposed through education to wider ideas, you are very likely to end up going along with the ideas that those closest to you have. Once people are educated, they have the opportunity to choose from a wider range of ideas.