To think breast fed babies are more intellegent

[thecatamongthepidgeons]

Because their parents tend to be more intellegent not because they were breast fed?
More intellegent parents are more likely to choose to breast feed regardless of any dificulties they face if they think it will benefit their children.

ruby Re-read some of your earlier posts please.

Then come back and tell me you werent berating women who ff!!!

The pic you posted was grossly insensitive, bearing in mind the preceeding posts.

Thank god you dont post on the bf support threads!...your insensitive and ignorant posts are just what a struggling mother needs!

cory It is absolute madness that it has become more "acceptable" to starve a child than to give it formula. :(

Ruby - I assume I am one of those you consider to be 'overreacting'. I honestly believe that my PND was triggered by my inability to breastfeed my children and the huge sense of failure that that engendered in me. It seemed like I was unable to do the single most basic thing for my children - to nourish them as nature intended, and I just couldn't come to terms with that.

Not everyone who cannot breastfeed with have (as I did) a history of depression, but even so, it is still a very sensitive subject and one where saying the wrong thing can cause a disproportionately large amount of pain. I suspect I was unusual in being close to suicidal because of my failure to breastfeed - but it is absolutely a fact that I would have been devastated, utterly destroyed, if someone had said to me some of the things that you and others have said on this thread - and it might very well have driven me over the edge.

I am saying all this, and possibly in your eyes overreacting, to try to make clear to people how important it is to be careful in debates like this. I am not suggesting that anyone cannot express their views and opinions, but simply asking that a little care be taken in how those views are expressed. Is it worth the risk of the damage that can be, and is done, to state your views as robustly as you can?

lady that is the point tho,there should be no stigma about anything.we are all women raising our babies the best way we can and if we compared and commented on everything we would be constantly doing it.I am on mat leave,i may take the full year but i am not concerned by a colleague returning after 4 months for example.
we all make different choices and the majority of Mums ADORE their babies and feel as protective and passionate about doing the best thing for them no matter how they feed them,that is why we should not pass judgememt-and i accept not everyone has on here.
ruby i think its a pity that you only speak about ff "choices" to ff,please open your mind to the possibility that some people CANNOT feed,i know the info from many is that you can if you persevere but that is not always the case,i have seen women with jaundiced and weak babies whi 4 days on still are producing nothing,i have seen women whos babies simply cannot latch on,i was so severly engorged with my first that i produced 9oz from each breast when i expressed,my nipples were stretched so flat he couldnt latch on,my 2nd was so prem that he couldnt feed as was tube fed for weeks,my most recent dd 6wks has a cleft palate-you are then advised not to feed from the breast-and i have also had a double mastectomy so couldnt even try-just a few examples.

sigh. I FF both my dc. (I mixed fed ds2 for a few weeks but he wanted to feed 16 hours a day and I had another child to care for so it didnt really work out, but hey, at least my milk came in that time!!)

I did work part time for a while before I had ds1 but am now a SAHM.

My ds1 had a dummy - early baby, IUGR, various other medical issues, couldnt suck so paed advised a dummy. He had it til he was 4.

ds2 sucks his thumb.

Weaned both ds1 and ds2 at 18 weeks.

We co-sleep.

I dont and have never smacked.

I home schooled ds1 for nearly a year.

ds1 eats no junk - sweets, chocolate etc (doesnt like it) ds2 could eat cart loads of it (like his mother).

ds1 only drinks cows milk and water.

ds2 drinks anything except cows milk. I even let him drink the odd fruit shoot

I realise this means that I am unworthy in the eyes of a lot of posters on MN - but it also means that I can support a mum struggling with any of the above issues as I have been there, done that.

You BF?? Well done!

You work?? Hope you enjoy it and it fulfills you!

You FF? Well done!

You are a SAHM?? Hope you enjoy it and it fulfills you!

Lets just support one another,ok? Is that so fucking hard to do???

cory what a balanced post,thankyou.

Becaroo I have helped women on the support threads.

My first post was kindly reposted again and yes, I was not berating women who ff, I was having a go at the couple of posters who a) told people to fuck off and b) said bfing was inconsequential. end of.

you are missing the point Becarooo. It was not the contaminated formula that killed that baby, it was the lack of protection against disentary and maybe cholera that breastfeeding would have afforded her. it is not always dodgy preparation but the lack of protection that breastmilk provides.

I personally don't judge the choices people make, and stating the facts is not judging-it is up to the individual to make their own judgement based on the facts.

ruby On the previous page you are referencing data which is knocking on 40 years old and was aimed at women in "developing" nations. We are on mn in 2011 and largely UK/northern-europe based. The women that data was meant to reach back in 1973 are probably not on mn. All you're doing is upsetting people for absolutely no good reason.

becs tsk tsk tsk

I know I know...........

well said alpine

AlpinePony, it seriously was my own fault. My HV and GP were both trying to point out the obvious, but I was so stuck in the idea that I was going to be the perfect parent and that if I only did everything right my children would be healthy and wonderful. In the same way as I later believed that if I only forced dd to walk long distances she would grow up strong and fit. 14 years and two disabled children have rather disabused me of this idea

It's not that breastfeeding - and long walks- are not good for most people and for the majority of situations. It is simply that there is no guarantee that yours will be one of the majority just because you have the right attitude.

ruby I dont think I am missing the point at all.

The death of any child is a tragedy. The fact that there are children dying now from diahorrea that could be helped by a simple rehydration mix makes me so angry I could puke.

You are taking an example of a baby being given formula milk that is made up with dirty contaminated water as a reason why mothers in the west/1st world shouldnt FF!!

MN seems to delight in making out the formula companies to be in league with the devil BUT perhaps some mothers in developing countries have some of the same issues that we have in the west? Poor latch, cleft palate, poor supply, thrush, mastitis etc etc??????? No la leche league for them!

AND Lots of mothers in developing countries now have to leave their children to work to provide for their families (particularly in countries with high HIV infection rates as many husbands/fathers are sick or have died) and so they ff and wean early as they cant have their children with them 24:7. They may also be infected themselves.

Surely we should be asking how we can help these women get access to clean water to give their children, rather than knock them over the head with the old "breast is best" argument?????

Thats not an argument that is going to be convincing to a woman who has 6 other dc to support and no husband and who is possibly HIV+ herself??????

Donate to water aid and make a difference that way!!!

cory - I'm so sorry you had to go through that - I really am. I ditched the boobs too when I realised my son was starving and the woman at LLL boasted of not feeding her baby for 5 days against medical recommendations. Let me tell you, when I heard that I picked up my formula without guilt ! I don't think it's an uncommon phenomena though - this wanting to bf - and I think, largely down to peer pressure, against the odds - and I see babies amongst my own peers who aren't quite as big/"happy" as perhaps they should be. :(

we're still going round in circles I see.

Bec your laptop's ok this morning then

boo yeah.....keeps beeping at me though

just because it's better to BF in the sub-continent rather than use contaminated water or use a watered-down version does not mean it's "better" globally.

Well, actually, just because we have access to clean water and sterilisation doesn't mean that breastfeeding still isn't better for babies.

I'm really not trying to be controversial or pick a fight or assume that I know better than other Mums how best to feed their babies. :) But just because we in the western world have access to clean water and can therefore make formula up safely, doesn't mean breastfeeding is now redundant.

AlpinePony, for every mother who WRONGLY (because a health professional should have identified that a baby is not getting milk and addressed it) continued with ineffectual breastfeeding and ended up with a dehydrated baby or one who failed to thrive, there are DOZENS AND DOZENS of women who are made to feel they should supplement with formula when actually there is no need.

Most breastfed babies over a week old are having formula. Most babies over 4 weeks old are fully formula fed.

"I don't think it's an uncommon phenomena though - this wanting to bf - and I think, largely down to peer pressure, against the odds"

Well that's because women know that with the right help, most women can breastfeed. And most can breastfeed fully. So women aren't stupid if they think that they can overcome breastfeeding difficulties. Usually they can!

The problem comes when people have complex problems with breastfeeding and no access to real expertise.

Most women want to breastfeed because that's how they want to mother their babies. I would have been gutted if I couldn't have breastfed. Not because someone else was telling me it was best for my baby, but because it suited me and her, despite our early difficulties.

"Surely we should be asking how we can help these women get access to clean water to give their children, rather than knock them over the head with the old "breast is best" argument?????"

Clean water is just *one part of the equation. Providing an affordable, steady supply of formula is another. Formula is too expensive for most families in these countries to afford. And the worst thing of all for HIV+ mums and babies is to mixed-feed. They either need to ensure a totally reliable source of formula so they can 100% ff, or they need to be helped to exclusively bf for 6 months, as both these feeding practices are associated with the lowest rates of HIV transmission.

So none of it's simple!

what is wrong with you people??? the OP has not been back since like post no. 70 and she only posted six times, two of which were glib, and is a troll namechanger.

Anyone who starts a thread like this ought to have the fucking balls to do so under her usual username and to declare any interests in the Infant feeding debate from the outset.

No fucking astroturfing.

What I would like to see though is an end to all this "YES, YOU CAN DO IT, breast is best I'm a nazi" shit which apparently is categorised as "support". You, and every one of your foot soldiers is potentially encouraging the starvation of a baby.

5dollar - can you show me the evidence of those laboratory twins? Because none of the other nazis can either. :) Breast fed babies get sick too you know, would be interesting if mn were to set up an anonymous survey on this matter - but somehow I doubt honesty would be applied.

All of us need to realise that without formula/modern medicine a lot of us would be dead, as would our children. Demonising formula won't save lives.

sigh....of course its not simple spud Thats my point!

fwiw, can we please stop the Nazi references? I really don't think it's a term that should be used lightly, and however much zealots of all flavours maybe annoying, they're hardly in the same league.

May I just sing...

Springtime for Hitler and Germany...

lalalalalalalala