Please or to access all these features

Add post

Watch this thread

Save thread

Start a new thread

Flip thread

Hide thread

My feed

Active Unanswered threads

Getting started FAQ's

Unanswered threads Acronyms Talk guidelines

Hide shortcut buttons

Talk

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Flip

1 2 3 4

Original poster

to want ds2 to abandon his principles? (more a WWYD)

88 replies

curlymama · 11/03/2011 09:09

DS2 is 8, he started going to cubs at the beginning of this term, and is due to be invested next week.

He has enjoyed some, not all, of the sessions so far, and has come home from the last couple of sessions saying he definately wants to be a cub.

BUT, now he has to learn the promise, which for those of you that don't know, starts with the line 'I promise to to my best to do my duty to God....'.

He says he doesn't believe in God. Which is fine by me if that's what he chooses. I believe in God, but only go to church when his CofE school has a Christmas/Easter service. He has been learning about Darwin and the theory of evolution, and has decided that as the world did not begin with Adam and Eve, then the whole Bible might be untrue, and therefore God is not as convincing as the dinosaur theory.

I've tried explianing things in a way that allows him to believe in both, he's not buying it. He wants to be a cub, but does not want to make a promise to God. He thinks it's wrong to say the promise if he doesn't mean it.

Part of me admires his principles, part of me wants him to just deal with it and get on with learning the promise in time for next week.

Convicing lies theorys to persuade him will be most gratefully recieved!

OP posts:

cumbria81 · 11/03/2011 09:12

I think he's overthinking it.

Original poster

curlymama · 11/03/2011 09:14

So do I cumbria, but he is a very stubborn determind little boy!

OP posts:

meditrina · 11/03/2011 09:14

I don't think there are convincing lines/lies.

The Scout movement is faith based (it doesn't have to be the Christian idea of God, but the Promise is unambiguously to your God).

I admire your son's position. I hope you can find a way to respect it, and find a way to work around it; either by finding a secular organisation that would suit him better or by negotiating an individual accommodation with this Akela to let him stay without making the Promise.

AtYourCervix · 11/03/2011 09:15

i thought it had been changed to 'do my duty to my god'?

get him to think up his own.

tribpot · 11/03/2011 09:15

Hmm, is there really no secular version of the promise? I think it actually goes "I promise to do my best, to do my duty to God" - i.e. those are two separate promises. But I take his point, he doesn't want to make a promise he doesn't mean.

I would speak to his cub leader and see if there isn't some alternative form of wording. Like being able to be sworn in as a witness in court on your word, rather than on the Bible.

meditrina · 11/03/2011 09:19

There isn't an alternative form of wording.

I think he's to be admired for exercising his conscience.

Honeybee79 · 11/03/2011 09:19

Can you explain to him that he can have his own "God" and that can be any power greater than himself? Force of gravity, the sea, etc.

weegiemum · 11/03/2011 09:19

My dd1 didn't like the "Queen" bit in her guide promise - "to do my best, to do my duty to God and the Queen" - she has similar views to me on the Royals.

But her guider was happy enough for her to promise "to my country" - after some negotiation (and I'm not sure if anyone in the Guides actually knows this!)

Surely the Akela should have some leeway? SOunds like a great wee boy you have there - mine just parroted it off to get the badge (boy does he love badges I sewed 5 on last night!)

nectarina · 11/03/2011 09:20

I don't really know what to suggest. When I enrolled in the Brownies I suppose I was unsure enough to not care about the part in the speech about duty to God, or at least I didn't care enough about it to stop going to brownies.
Perhaps you could get your son to talk to the leader and for you both to explain the situation and see what they say - explain that he wants to join a lot, but doesn't believe in God. I don't think persuading him to make a pact that he doesn't believe in will do your relationship with him any good down the line.
I do think that the moment you realise that you don't believe in God can be quite powerful, and I can understand why he's feeling torn. We're told the importance of telling the truth, and not making false promises when we're children, and I think you have to respect that he won't want to make a false promise in the name of hanging out with the cubs.
Its a shame, because I liked brownies and apart from the promise you make, there really isn't much to do with God after that. It would be a shame for him to miss out. However kids take things sometimes very seriously and making promises in such a reverent and serious manner can feel incredibly daunting for a kid. I hope this helps a bit.

kreecherlivesupstairs · 11/03/2011 09:22

I was a Brownie leader, I omitted the god part when I made my promise.

FauxFox · 11/03/2011 09:30

Just tell him to say "cod" instead...no one will notice and he can always eat sustainably sourced fish and do his duty to cod instead

Original poster

curlymama · 11/03/2011 09:37

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions.

That's interesting that you found a way round it kreecher.

I think I will try telling him that he can use the word God to mean any force greater then himself, good suggestion!

If he's not happy with that, I will phone his Akela, which is also something I hadn't thought of yet.

I agree with you that it would be wrong to encourage him to make a promise that he doesn't believe in, for lots of reasons. That's why I asked the wisdom of MN, because when we were talking about it last night we ended up going round in circles and I ran out of things to say that he couln't come up with a very reasonable answer too! I was getting very close to telling him to just say it even if he didn't mean it, but of course, I really would be sending him all sort of mixed messages if I did that.

OP posts:

LadyThumb · 11/03/2011 09:37

I really think he should discuss this with Akala, perhaps with you there as well. Or he could leave out the words "God and" and just swear allegiance to the Queen.

Quote from the Scouting Movement:

"In order to accommodate many different religions within Scouting, "God" may refer to a higher power, and is not specifically restricted to the God of the monotheistic religions. The WOSM Constitution explains "Duty to God" as "Adherence to spiritual principles, loyalty to the religion that expresses them and acceptance of the duties resulting therefrom."

Original poster

curlymama · 11/03/2011 09:38

FauxFox

OP posts:

ScroobiousPip · 11/03/2011 09:58

Many years ago, I was in the same position re the Guides. I was allowed to omit that part of the promise - hopefully in this day and age your DS's leader will agree to do likewise.

To do otherwise would be discriminatory, I think - some atheists don't believe in a greater force so would be excluded by the strict wording of the promise.

I think you should be proud of your DS for developing his own principled approach and sticking to it, rather than trying to persuade him that God can be any greater force. Otherwise, you are sending him the message that sometimes it's OK to bend your principles so as not to rock the boat.

strandedpolarbear · 11/03/2011 10:05

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Donki · 11/03/2011 10:07

AS a beaver, DS was allowed to not promise to love God - since Scout HQ didn't think that most 6 year olds would understand what they were promising anyway...

I/he were warned that if/when he wanted to go on to join Cubs, he would be expected to make the full promise.

(After point blank refusing to promise to Love God as a Beaver, he was quite happy to Promise to do his duty to God 2 years later...)

turdass · 11/03/2011 10:07

Well done your son. Don't ask him to compromise on his beliefs - respect him for his moral stance.

frgr · 11/03/2011 10:08

i'm very very impressed that as an 8 year old he is confident enough in himself to state his preferences to such a thing - and you've taught him the difference between right and wrong/telling lies or being honest enough that he is finding it difficult to lie in public

you should be absolutely thrilled at him!! he clearly is growing up to be a principaled little boy - even if he doesn't think what you think on this particular issue - well done!

Original poster

curlymama · 11/03/2011 10:12

Thanks everyone, I'm feeling very pround of my little boy!

I'm starting to think I might text the Akela and get her to give me a call before next week, she seems reasonable enough so hopefully she will be understanding.

OP posts:

FabbyChic · 11/03/2011 10:12

You have a cool kid, it is good that you are allowing him to have his own beliefs.

Original poster

curlymama · 11/03/2011 10:13

Pround - don't know what that feels like! I'll go with proud instead!

OP posts:

WriterofDreams · 11/03/2011 10:25

Tell him you're the higher power in his life and therefore he's pledging to do his duty to you - ie tidying up, hugging, giving kisses etc

tribpot · 11/03/2011 20:30

I think he sounds like he's a humanist - I'm an atheist but I believe very strongly in the human spirit. I do hope he can make a vow in keeping with his philosophy :)

ViolaTricolor · 11/03/2011 20:34

Your son sounds ace .

Flip

1 2 3 4

Swipe left for the next trending thread