to want ds2 to abandon his principles? (more a WWYD)

[curlymama]

DS2 is 8, he started going to cubs at the beginning of this term, and is due to be invested next week.

He has enjoyed some, not all, of the sessions so far, and has come home from the last couple of sessions saying he definately wants to be a cub.

BUT, now he has to learn the promise, which for those of you that don't know, starts with the line 'I promise to to my best to do my duty to God....'.

He says he doesn't believe in God. Which is fine by me if that's what he chooses. I believe in God, but only go to church when his CofE school has a Christmas/Easter service. He has been learning about Darwin and the theory of evolution, and has decided that as the world did not begin with Adam and Eve, then the whole Bible might be untrue, and therefore God is not as convincing as the dinosaur theory.

I've tried explianing things in a way that allows him to believe in both, he's not buying it. He wants to be a cub, but does not want to make a promise to God. He thinks it's wrong to say the promise if he doesn't mean it.

Part of me admires his principles, part of me wants him to just deal with it and get on with learning the promise in time for next week.

Convicing lies theorys to persuade him will be most gratefully recieved!

I have tried making him believe it's all about spirituality, and that when he says God it can mean any God he chooses to believe in.
Honestly, this has been our main topic of converstaion for days, I even googled Darwin and Christianity and tried to eplain how lots of theorys can work together even if they seem like they oppose.

This is the child who has an answer for everything, I'm wondering if he's starting to enjoy just being controversial now! He was, and is, very serious about it, but I think he also knows that I'm having a real dielemma here, and he might be starting to find it slightly humorous!

They should let him use the Belgian open promise which says:
"I promise, on my honour, to try:
To be loyal to a higher ideal, our group and democracy
To obey the guides/Scouts/cubs law
To help where possible"

Swiss, Danish, Czech, Canadian, Israeli and French scouts can all make promises without reference to a god as well, ask them why British cubs have to be either religious or liars.

ok, I promise I'm done now, but you could tell them as they could be considered a public authority due to the size of the movement that they are breaking European Law:

"Article 14 of the European Convention for the Protection of Human Rights and Fundamental Freedoms states:
Prohibition of discrimination
The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.

Article 1 of Protocol 12 of the ECHR states:
General prohibition of discrimination

1. The enjoyment of any right set forth by law shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.
2. No one shall be discriminated against by any public authority on any ground such as those mentioned in paragraph 1."

Thanks for all the views, Buzz, you obviously feel strongly about this, and I have discovered that I do too!

I phoned the main Scouts HQ after I read your posts about other countries being able to make a promise without reference to God, but while they were understanding, and again in admiration of my child, they still said he has to take the promise as it is. They said they are a multi faith orgainisation, so while they will compromise for any faith, they will not compromise for a child they seemingly has no faith. She said she had heard of it before with other parents that are atheists (which we are not), but that it was their choice to make the child take the promise or not. The message is if you don't believe in a God, don't join.

DS1 - who is a young leader for Beavers and Cubs (and also an atheist) - tells me that he thinks that there is an alternative promise that does not mention God for children under 17. He has just undertaken training as a young leader and this was discussed at some length.

This is in Scotland, however, and so may be different where you are.

He was told by the head trainer that after the age of 17 he would not be allowed to be a young leader any more because then he has to believe in God . He mentioned this to our village leader and was told that they would ignore that because they need him!!

OK. Have just seen your post above Curly. Obviously DS1 got it wrong.

Have just told him.

(He is on study leave by the way which is why he is helping me Mumsnet)

Good for him. Let him wait a few years before he learns the neccessary cynisism and hypocrisy that most people live by.

Not at all Libra, what you said is interesting. I expect there are differences across the country acording to the beliefs of the individuals that run the different groups. Others on this thread have said that they didn't have to say God, so it must happen.

out of interest, does anyone know what happens with regards children with SN being a cub/brownie?

I have heard that (depending on area) they are very accepting of SN - but what does that mean wrt the promise?

I am just enquiring about Brownies for dd1 - she has ASD. there is no way she could make the promise and understand it/mean it - so where does that leave her?

I am very impressed with your son's logic and conviction at only 8 years old, and he should definitely be allowed to stay true to his well thought out and structured beliefs.

Well done, you've done a good job with him!

Thanks Daim, I'm very proud of him, and have been quite surprised by this whole thing!

Silverfrog, from what I have read on the scouts website and from the people I've just spoken to, it doesn't seem to matter if they understand it or believe it. As long as, if they are able to speak, they say it. They would say it for a child line by line to repeat if they had trouble remembering the whole thing. I'm not sure if there would be any differnce with brownies though, I have a feeling they are a different orgainsation, so they might have different rules.

Silverfrog, I'm a Brownie leader, and have always understood that a child makes their promise when they're ready to. If you didn't have a problem with your daughter not understanding what she was saying, I'd be happy for her to repeat the words after me (I'd be concerned that she might feel left out if others were getting their promise badge and she wasn't), but would never stop her actively participating in activities, trips, etc just because she hadn't made her promise.

Saying all that, I'm a bit of an anarchist about some of the 'rules' so some leaders might well not agree with my views!

I'm an atheist with children in catholic school, yes its something I get het up about!

Personally I would teach him the other promise and have him stand up and say that, I would like to see the officious leader turn him down in front of everyone. I doubt they would.
Or I would make an official complaint in writing of discrimination under european law and request as response in writing. They should not get away with such blatant discrimination of children.

or add in the word no before God.

I dont blame you for being hacked off!

My DD (6) has just started girls brigade where they get points each week and at the end of the year awards are given out.

Where I am perfectly happy for her learn about the Christian movement while she is there, and join in prayers if she is happy too, she will only get full points each week if she has been to Church.

We are not church-goers and I feel it would be hypocritical to take her purely so she can get an award at Girls Brigade.

Surely these leaders need to realise that if their club is to be "inclusive" then they shouldnt penalise those who are not of the Christian faith.

The fact that you can be of any faith, but have no faith to be a member of scouts and guides is to my mind out right discrimination should be changed!

I'm a life long member and supporter of the Girl Guides, and feel that in our modern multi cultural society children should no longer be having to fudge* as I did almost 40 years ago.

• I won't say lie, because aged 7 I decided that Jesus said that loving your neighbour was the most important thing so concluded that if I kept the "and help other people bit" that would just have to do. As a Guide I decided that renewing a promise already made wasn't a new promise and as a Ranger, I felt probably least uncomfortable of all because my Guider a devout Catholic knew what I believed and was perfectly comfortable with it.

(On Remembrance Sunday we would gather at the Memorial and after the silence she'd smile at me and nod and she'd go off to Mass and I'd go home. Both of us knowing that we would feel uncomfortable at the church service that followed)

Fortunately as an adult (BC I was a Brown Owl they were so happy to have someone to help they never asked and I didn't remind them.

Your sons opinions should not be belittled just because he is 8.
I have never believed in God. At about the same age as I joined Brownies I was very to get a special certificate for religious knowledge from a visiting Cannon (C of Wales School), I just answered the questions so we could get on with something more interesting.

(As for my own DD's, they sometimes believe in something and I think did when they started Brownies and sometimes don't - DH and I decided within 2 days of knowing each other that our upbringings meant that religion was the one thing we would never agree on. 23 years later we still don't!)

I think I would advise my child to take the Tony Banks option and cross his fingers whilst making the promise.

The current promise he'd be expected to take is:

"I promise that I will do my best
to do my duty to God and to the Queen
to help other people
and to keep the Cub Scout Law"

There's nothing in the promise about believing in God... Just doing his duty.

So just tell him as long as he does his duty to the entity he doesn't believe exists (so therefore isn't likely to be expecting him to do anything) then it's all good!

And he wouldn't be lying when promising to do it...as basically with that line he's promising to do nothing at all.

The promise can be made using 'my dharma' rather than God (or so it says on the scouts.org website). From googling my extensive research dharma is quite a far reaching word and you may be able to find a way for your ds to use it without compromising his admirable principles. After all, the wording suggested is my dharma.

The Scouts have a big problem on their hands re religion, but it's a slow-burner. See, for example:
www.secularism.org.uk/uploads/3547a0623e9142d307919993.pdf

They are completely inflexible at the moment, but something will have to give eventually, or they'll only be thriving in the US.