Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to want ds2 to abandon his principles? (more a WWYD)

88 replies

curlymama · 11/03/2011 09:09

DS2 is 8, he started going to cubs at the beginning of this term, and is due to be invested next week.

He has enjoyed some, not all, of the sessions so far, and has come home from the last couple of sessions saying he definately wants to be a cub.

BUT, now he has to learn the promise, which for those of you that don't know, starts with the line 'I promise to to my best to do my duty to God....'.

He says he doesn't believe in God. Which is fine by me if that's what he chooses. I believe in God, but only go to church when his CofE school has a Christmas/Easter service. He has been learning about Darwin and the theory of evolution, and has decided that as the world did not begin with Adam and Eve, then the whole Bible might be untrue, and therefore God is not as convincing as the dinosaur theory. Hmm Grin

I've tried explianing things in a way that allows him to believe in both, he's not buying it. He wants to be a cub, but does not want to make a promise to God. He thinks it's wrong to say the promise if he doesn't mean it.

Part of me admires his principles, part of me wants him to just deal with it and get on with learning the promise in time for next week.

Convicing lies theorys to persuade him will be most gratefully recieved! Grin

OP posts:
DamselInDisguise · 14/03/2011 14:26

The official December 'promise' newsletter says that:

"The phrase ?to love God? and ?duty to God? implies belief in a Supreme Being and the acceptance of Divine Guidance."

So it would definitely require him to assert that he believes in a God of some description. There are alternate wordings available so as to make the promise suitable for other faiths, but apparently no way to make the promise for atheists.

If you're not a British citizen, you don't have to swear any allegiance to the queen, but you do if you are British, which kind of sucks too.

I told DS1 (who is adamantly atheist and republican) just to lie when he did his cub scout promise.

Spirael · 14/03/2011 16:45

Implying a belief is different to definitely asserting.

"I promise to do my duty to Father Christmas. Grin
I will be a good girl this year, and therefore hopefully not get coal in my stocking."

There's an implication there that Father Christmas exists... But you can't definitely assert that he does from that statement.

Besides, ultimately, what is the actual meaning of the promise? To determine whether or not Father Christmas exists for me and/or anyone else... Or to make sure I'm a good girl for the next year?

sb6699 · 14/03/2011 18:36

Maryz - she has just joined when I spoke to the leader I asked if the fact we werent active Christians would pose a problem and they said no that they welcome everyone.

I really dont have a problem with her joining in bible lessons/prayers, in a way its good that she is receiving some sort of education in that respect and she can make up her own mind about her beliefs when she's mature enough to do so.

I just feel Sad because I know when it comes to the awards she is never going to get one and its because of her parents beliefs.

Maryz · 14/03/2011 18:46

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

toutlemonde · 14/03/2011 19:05

Curlymama, me and DS went through a similar thing a year ago when he wanted to be invested at cubs. I remember checking it out and being gobsmacked that there was no alternatives for all us atheists (most British people right?) and our atheist kids to 'the promise'. I remember reading that there are a bunch of akelas also that aren't into the whole god thing but have to go along with it and insist the cubs lie when they join up, or else exclude them...

DS planned to just miss that bit out and argue it later if he was questioned, but when it came to it he just said the promise, god / queen / the lot, as he was too shy not to...

I hope you both resolve it it a way you're happier with x

EcoLady · 14/03/2011 19:11

I'm involved with both Guidng and Scouting. In Guiding we promise to "love my God" and that word MY is very important.

My God is the 'god' of science and facts. As a Brownie Leader who is Humanist, with Brownies who are Christian, Hindu, Buddist and devote athiest, we've had some interesting discussions in my unit!

For some facts on what the position is regarding Scouting and faith try this link. Some of the things said earlier in the thread here are not true.

SoupDragon · 14/03/2011 19:18

According to Chambers dictionary, god can mean an extremely influential or greatly admired man. So, I see no reason your son can't pick someone he admmires and mentally have him as his god when he makes the promise.

Or go with cod. I like that suggestion :o

Caz10 · 14/03/2011 19:19

As other posters have said, brownies etc say MY god- I was happy with that as a leader when I made my promise, just had in mind some non specific higher order of things!

Your Ds sounds fab btw!

pointydog · 14/03/2011 19:23

Can he join the woodcraft folk?

lol @ my god meaning the god of science and facts. Twisting it just slightly Wink

Spirael · 14/03/2011 19:47

From the link by EcoLady: "Part of the promise 'To do my duty to God' requires that the person taking the promise believes in a higher being - this can be called 'God', 'Allah' or 'Dharma'."

That's even better! :D Are you taller than your DS? If so, surely you're a 'higher' being. It just says this being 'can' be called God et al... Why not 'Mum'?

You can be your DS's 'God' for the promise. Wink Then he can stop doing his duty to you once he's taller than you are...

BuzzLiteBeer · 14/03/2011 19:48

thats fine if people are ok with that, but a lot of atheists would object to using god in any sense. It feels liek lying, like twisting your truth to fit someone elses ideals. It doesn't feel good at all if you are that way inclined.

twoistwiceasfun · 15/03/2011 20:26

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Takver · 15/03/2011 21:04

Like pointydog and twoistwice says - maybe look and see if there is a branch of the Woodcraft Folk nearby - very similar to Cubs, but no god.

New posts on this thread. Refresh page