Active discussions

Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

Talk
AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to want ds2 to abandon his principles? (more a WWYD)

88 replies

curlymama · 11/03/2011 09:09

DS2 is 8, he started going to cubs at the beginning of this term, and is due to be invested next week.

He has enjoyed some, not all, of the sessions so far, and has come home from the last couple of sessions saying he definately wants to be a cub.

BUT, now he has to learn the promise, which for those of you that don't know, starts with the line 'I promise to to my best to do my duty to God....'.

He says he doesn't believe in God. Which is fine by me if that's what he chooses. I believe in God, but only go to church when his CofE school has a Christmas/Easter service. He has been learning about Darwin and the theory of evolution, and has decided that as the world did not begin with Adam and Eve, then the whole Bible might be untrue, and therefore God is not as convincing as the dinosaur theory. Hmm Grin

I've tried explianing things in a way that allows him to believe in both, he's not buying it. He wants to be a cub, but does not want to make a promise to God. He thinks it's wrong to say the promise if he doesn't mean it.

Part of me admires his principles, part of me wants him to just deal with it and get on with learning the promise in time for next week.

Convicing lies theorys to persuade him will be most gratefully recieved! Grin

OP posts:
Katey1010 · 11/03/2011 20:39

Your son's great. Well done him. If you can negotiate with the Akela about this it will be a great lesson in multiculturalism and ethics. It is also a good example of having good principles without a creator god. Some people really believe it is not possible to have an ethical framework without one.

Pandamoanium · 11/03/2011 20:43

He sounds so much like my DS2, who is now 18 and a really amazing person with fascinating views on life! Glad to see you are so proud of him - I would be too X

reup · 11/03/2011 20:43

I would feel uncomfortable getting my kids to make vows to god and queen. That's why they have never joined beavers or brownies. There is a local woodcraft folk thing. I met some kids that go there that love it.

pranma · 11/03/2011 20:46

That is weird-in 1978 my ds left cubs because he 'couldn't mean the promise'.He solemnly told me that God wasn't logical!!

Lonnie · 11/03/2011 21:17

My FIL who was very religious always said that Genesis is not imcompatible with the theory of evolution.

Imagine trying to explain the theory of evolution in a very basic manner to a society 3000 years ago. You could end up with a story not disimilar to genesis.

Could you use that to convince him?

Katey1010 · 12/03/2011 18:51

Except for the lack of dinosaurs... Wink

BuzzLiteBeer · 12/03/2011 18:55

That was one of the reasons I didn't join the brownies after my trial. That and the incident with the small fire. Blush

He's not overthinking anything and cubs should be open to atheist children too, otherwise isn't it just discrimination?

iscream · 12/03/2011 18:59

It is a organization with Christian principals, he has to decide for himself. Either make the promise, or leave the group.

I assume he doesn't believe in Santa Claus, at age 8, that is hard.

BuzzLiteBeer · 12/03/2011 19:00

are there no jewish or muslim cubs? are they banned if they won't swear to a christian god? Hmm

TheFallenMadonna · 12/03/2011 19:00

I'm not sure it's discrimination really. Or rather it is, but in the same way that a religious organisation is discriminatory. It isn't a public body. It's a bit like saying it would discriminatory not to baptise people who can't make the baptismal promises (or their parents, I feel a whole infant baptism diversion coming on Grin).

TheFallenMadonna · 12/03/2011 19:02

It is to your God Buzz. Other faiths welcome I believe. Although they only ever have church parades at Christian churches IME. Anybody with different experiences?

BuzzLiteBeer · 12/03/2011 19:02

it's not, unless cubs actually is a religion all of its own.

colditz · 12/03/2011 19:03

No. I think you are wrong.

Would you deny your belief in God to get into a club you really wanted to get into?

Unlikely. Do NOT put pressure on him to do this, to lie to get his own way, to pretend to have belief when he is only following facts to their logical conclusion. It's bad enough that the cub leader is. What on earth are you trying to teach him? that faith isn't necessary as long as you pretend?

BuzzLiteBeer · 12/03/2011 19:03

then the argument about it being a christian organisation is nullified. If you will admit any religion but not no religion, thats even more discriminatory.

TheFallenMadonna · 12/03/2011 19:07

Should there be no faith based organisations then? Even private ones?

exoticfruits · 12/03/2011 19:22

I admire him. The Scout organisation are quite clear what they are. Clubs are free to make their own rules. It would seem a good idea to find something more suited.
Maybe he could discuss it with a cub leader to see a way around it. Getting him to pretend or say cod is really not fair on him, when he is obviously a child with strong principles.I would respect his views-I'm sure the cubs would.

BuzzLiteBeer · 12/03/2011 19:23

there can be plenty. But a christian organisation that will admit anyone with any god but not those with no god? an organisation for children?

Seriously, you can't see a problem with that? Hmm

melezka · 12/03/2011 19:40

Some people who think of god as a sort of energy call the energy Good Orderly Direction.
It's a bit like Before Common Era instead of B.C. - almost the same thing, so can fit in, but not related to traditional religious beliefs.

Original poster
curlymama · 14/03/2011 10:24

Update!

I've spoken to the Arkela this morning, she was lovely and very understanding. SHe agreed that his position is to be admired, and was impressed that he has thought so much about the promise. She said she would speak to the area leader and get back to me about it. When she did, she said that the big scout leader had said that he has to take the promise as it is, or not join. Sad Angry Apparantly as he is only 8, he might change his mind! Hmm So now I'm also questioning why someone that thinks the opinion of a child is so worthless thinks he should be in charge of this children's activity.

I'm not happy about it at all, and I'm not sure what to do for the best now. I'm going to take him to the session early, and the Arkela said she would have a one to one chat to him and explain that he can only be a cub if he takes the full promise. I'll probably just tell him to listen to what she has to say, and if he still doesn't want to say it, then I will take him home.

I really don't know what to do now. I think going to this particular cub group will be good for him in so many ways, but it just seems to me so wrong that the scouts organisation think it is ok to teach a child that they should make a promise they have no intention of keeping just so he can have the benefit of going on camp etc. I don't want to be forced to make him leave, but if they insist so strongly I might have no choice. I refuse to confuse my child by saying it's ok to lie and make false promises.

OP posts:
BuzzLiteBeer · 14/03/2011 10:26

You should write to the district head or whatever it is, and point out the unchristian attitudes of those wanting children to lie and excluding those who are not quite the same as them.

PatriciaHolm · 14/03/2011 10:31

I can fully empathise with him; I got kicked out of Guides as I wouldn't say the promise - either the God bit or the Queen bit! I knew exactly what I was doing even then, and my beliefs haven't changed a bit. You have a brave child there with a strong self belief, good for him.

That said, these days I thought they were more relaxed, so I'm sorry they are not being helpful. I certainly wouldn't want my child having anything to do with someone who considered his opinion so worthless, but I'm bolshy about these things Grin

Is there another activity he would enjoy? Karate or Judo are popular here for primary children as they are exercise but disciplined!

Original poster
curlymama · 14/03/2011 10:41

Thanks for the replies, I am thinking about writing a letter! I'm quite unreasonably upset about this!

The reason we wanted a group like cubs is because they do different things every week, ds2 get's bored easily! He's quite a fan of collecting badges, and also as he goes to a school in a different village, I wanted him to meet some more local children, especially as he will probably end up at secondary school with some of them. And it's one of the few places e can walk to from where we live. He did do judo, and while he enjoyed it for a while, after about three terms he stopped enjoying it and it became a struggle to get him to go. I still took him, because I'd paid for it, and as he'd chosen to do it that term I made him fulfil his commitment. But he really wasn't enjoying it anymore, he's quite small for his age and was being separated from his friends to go with the younger children that were a simelar size.

I might have to strt looking further afield Sad

OP posts:
KnittedBreast · 14/03/2011 10:43

just tell him to cough at the word god so he dousnt have to say it!

Maryz · 14/03/2011 10:44

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Maryz · 14/03/2011 10:48

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Swipe left for the next trending thread