To be "confused" about people's relationships on MN?

[AnnyR]

I have only been reading these forums for a few weeks and am increasingly confused/worried about many people's reactions relationships.

There seems to be a stock answer of "kick him out" or "leave him" when someone is having a bad time with their DH or DP. Is this why we have such a high divorce rate at the moment?

I wonder because I think that no-one is perfect and there is no such thing as a perfect relationship. Having been married for nearly 25 years I know that it is hard to stick it out sometimes. Both of us have done things to hurt and upset the other over the years, but we stick together for loads of reasons. Mainly because we ultimately love each other. And because we have DC who need both of us.

Obviously, cases of domestic violence are different - I don't think you should always stay together no matter what. Also, I am not religious and didn't make vows in church, so I am not coming from that angle either.

But why are so many Mumsnetters so quick to advise people to leave?

I am genuinely confused and sad :(

pigletmania no, it was another thread, on Relationships. Not a MIL one, for once!

Well, yes, Anny, MN does require courage. But I just know you have it in you!

OP you say "Obviously, cases of domestic violence are different."

Are you aware of the women's aid definition of domestic violence?

It is not just physical violence.

?Destructive criticism and verbal abuse: shouting/mocking/accusing/name calling/verbally threatening

?Pressure tactics: sulking, threatening to withhold money, disconnect the telephone, take the car away, commit suicide, take the children away, report you to welfare agencies unless you comply with his demands regarding bringing up the children, lying to your friends and family about you, telling you that you have no choice in any decisions.

?Disrespect: persistently putting you down in front of other people, not listening or responding when you talk, interrupting your telephone calls, taking money from your purse without asking, refusing to help with childcare or housework.

?Breaking trust: lying to you, withholding information from you, being jealous, having other relationships, breaking promises and shared agreements.

?Isolation: monitoring or blocking your telephone calls, telling you where you can and cannot go, preventing you from seeing friends and relatives.

?Harassment: following you, checking up on you, opening your mail, repeatedly checking to see who has telephoned you, embarrassing you in public.

?Threats: making angry gestures, using physical size to intimidate, shouting you down, destroying your possessions, breaking things, punching walls, wielding a knife or a gun, threatening to kill or harm you and the children.

?Sexual violence: using force, threats or intimidation to make you perform sexual acts, having sex with you when you don't want to have sex, any degrading treatment based on your sexual orientation.

?Physical violence: punching, slapping, hitting, biting, pinching, kicking, pulling hair out, pushing, shoving, burning, strangling.

?Denial: saying the abuse doesn't happen, saying you caused the abusive behaviour, being publicly gentle and patient, crying and begging for forgiveness, saying it will never happen again.

If you are interested and lurk on the relationships board you will have your eyes opened to the abuse many women suffer and the patterns that emerge.

Often a poster starts with some seemingly insignificant issues which then through the course of a thread unflod into a horrifying tale of abuse.

This issue is not properly covered in the mainstream media.

Do you all realise that 2 women a week are murdered in this country by their partners?

Today 1000's of women (including many MNers) have been marching to speak out against male violence against women.

Often a poster starts with some seemingly insignificant issues which then through the course of a thread unfold into a horrifying tale of abuse.

And often, a poster starts with what really is an insignificant issue, and through the course of the thread are convinced that their partner is some monster.

I have watched it unfold numerous times.

Sadly, there are few posters who have their own agenda, and cant help but project their own issues onto the Op of such threads. To the point that after 10 pages of it, the Op is saying "yep, I need to end this relationship".

I post regularly on the relationships board, not because I am in an unhappy marriage or an abusive one. But because I have had horrendous relationships in the past, have been happily married now for ten years, and I feel I am able to give a balanced opinion on many threads. Not a knee jerk reaction because I have problems of my own that I cant deal with, (if that makes sense).

I agree its the stock answer, but some people do seem to be in dreadful relationships and put up with no end of crap

OP, I'm glad you raised this, because I was thinking this only today.In the last few days there was a thread where the OP was asking for advice about going to an event where th ex-OW would be. And the advise started off asnwering he question - the consnesu was how if she wasn't comforatable she should insist they didn't go - fair enought.
But shockingly, lots of questions wer asked of her about the affair etc etc, and posters were telling her she should leave the husband! This was not what she had started a thread about, there are plenty of 'should I leave him' threads but this seemed like serious interference and goading a vulnerable person inot taking a very serious life-changing, devastating-for-theDC course of action. The irresponsiblity was breathtaking. Made me think of those sites where supposedly people egg others on to commit suicide. Really disgusted by the way that thread evolved.

I'm amazed by it too. I was advised by a couple of people to break up with my DP because he had stage fright!

What forkful and Mal said.

The really sad thing about many of the relationship threads is that they show that abuse follows a pattern. To those posters who have been in relationships with abusers, be they physical or emotional, the pattern is all too visible.

I think it is glib to say that everyone shouts 'leave him' on a thread for no reason. Actually what is usually advised is that the poster tries to gain some self-esteem by having counselling for themselves. There are many. many men and women out there living in terrible relationships who have no idea what is happening to them, and how to fix it.

Abuse is not just a punch in the face. It is many more things as the poster above said.

Many of us who have managed to escape these abusive relationships have been born into families that are dysfunctional, and we have thought that relationships are like the ones we have had modelled to us by our parents as children.

If you have had the good fortune to have had good role models for parents, and you know what a good healthy relationship is as an adult, please do not mock those of us who have not been so fortunate as you.

Some of us had to 'leave him' to save our own lives, and our own mental health, and more importantly those of our children.

And just because we are survivors does not mean that we cannot have a balanced view. I know that all men are not abusive, I have a son for gods sake and left to save him from becoming the same as his father.

I think you have to look at each situation on its own merits and not make sweeping generalisations about replies that come from the heart to help people in difficult situations.

We who have 'left him' know exactly how hard it is to do that very thing. Please have some compassion for those who are struggling for all sorts of reasons.

Yes, I do know about DV, which is why I said I wasn't talking about that! I think there is a huge difference between threads where the OP reveals more and more about a relationship and you can see that she/he is uncovering a huge and nasty background and other threads which are about relatively trivial things and still people suggest that the solution is to leave.

Obviously, there will be far more going on than we can know - that is the nature of forums like these. We only read what the OP wants us to know and we never hear the other side.

There is a vast difference between DV and the usual "niggles" that most of us have over a long-term relationship. I just worry sometimes that we have lost the ability to hang in there and weather the storms - and I am not talking about putting up with awful stuff just normal day-to-day living.

Oh, I don't know why on earth I started this thread - I am now so worried about how to express what I mean without being accused of telling women to put up with DV. I'm not!

Mrs Guy....that particular poster had posted many times about her unhappiness, and the fact that her H was making no real attempt to put things right.

Often an OP will post many threads, all seemingly about small issues, but when they are all put together they make very sad reading.

Regulars on the relationship threads recognise particular OPs and try to help them by seeing the broader picture.

There is a reason that Women's Aid call their amazing course 'Pattern Changing'.

And yes. I do know that men can be abused too. I have two friends in that sad situation.

And actually, several of the more 'vocal' posters on the relationship board are in very happy marriages. They know as well as those of us who had to 'leave him', what is a good relationship and what is not.

No-one expects anyone to leave for 'niggles'.

i do worry sometimes because quite obviously vulnerable people come on here asking for advice, help, whathaveyou and they are often harangued and pressured into going with the leave him brigade and if they try to protest they are shouted down, I have seen it many many times on here and its quite concerning

In the vast majority of cases vulnerable posters are advised to call Women's Aid.

Often it is a huge shock to an OP to finally see what it is they are putting up with.

They post about a small thing. Then they post some more, and then suddenly they start defending their partner who they are clearly terrified of or appeasing in some way...walking on eggshells. This is a natural reaction to the huge light-bulb moments that come with information that they are not alone and that others have been where they are now.

It takes time to see what others can see. And the shame of being abused is also another reason why posters are in denial often.

There are many many times though, when that OP will come back later, sometimes months and years later and be ready to hear what they refused to hear before.

No-one is going to leave their partner because some old bird on an internet forum told them to. But they might just go and find some help in real life if they see that others think that what they are enduring is not right.

(unflounce)

This is why I flounced. I realised I cannot take advice from a bunch of strangers; many of whom have no desire to be in a relationship and/or don't believe in monogamy. I was called desperate for asking if going on facebook all the time was a dumpable offence.

I am still with him, he's fantastic, I love him and I have decided I was over reacting.Facebook isn't a dumpable offence.Wanting to work things out isn't desperation either ladies.

(Sticks tongue out; fingers up and reflounces!)

No, I am too cowardly for MN. Sorry if I have upset anyone on here with my thoughtlessness. I don't think MN is for me. Just too difficult to express what I mean without upsetting people and I really don't want to do that.

Let's close this thread now please.

You love him? Blimey, when he doesn't speak much English and you've only known him five weeks.

I think you'll find women across the whole spectrum had issues with your posts, not just the ones who don't believe in relationships or monogamy.

Well that's lovely for you posh, if you BOTH want to work things out then good for you.

But if only one of you is interested in working anything out, then what?

Most posters seem to be objective and hugely helpful IMO. Unfortunately there seems to be a huge amount of bitterness projected into negative posts by what seems to be a small, regular minority of a MNers. Because they broadcast so loudly, i think they get disproportionate coverage.

We'll all be affected by our own experiences in life so I guess those that have got a lot of bitterness inside will project it in their views. They'll also struggle to see that others can/want to help fix things so will baulk at respones challenging their own views.

I suppose it makes more of a case for speaking up when we see something that we feel needs another point of view.

There was a thread about men in the delivery room.

Apparently if you are about to give birth and you don't think your dh can take the sight of blood.... you should leave him! Great way to welcome your baby in to the world.

AnnyR...no-one is upset.

Please don't leave MN, it is actually an amazing place. The women (and men)on here are so wise and compassionate.

But sweeping generalisations are never good, wherever they occur.

Mn does need differing views for balance.

Also AIBU is a bear-pit.

I'll just repeat what I said earlier.
If I had someone on mumsnet to talk to when my marriage went tips up, I would not have stayed so long.
I found the confidence to get out, but there are too many women out there just accepting being treated badly and thinking this is the norm.
I did, and as it wasn't physical abuse, I really believed the things he told me.
My life is my own now, me and my son.
A good marriage you should work at.
A bad marriage you should get out off.
Knowing the difference is the hardest part so advice from those who've been through it is always worth listening too.
It's only advice at the end of the day. You don't have to take it.

I've obviously been reading different threads because I don't think that 'leave him' is a stock answer on the Relationships threads. Maybe on AIBU, but those are silly sorts of threads which ask for confrontation (and get it).

However in real life when you have a major trauma to your relationship many many people will say leave him/her. Certainly that's what I was told repeatedly when dh had his affair. It didn't make me any more vulnerable than I was already, I understood where they were coming from, it was probably what I would have told a friend too. The great advantage of MN is that you have so very many different perspectives it really helps you think through what you yourself think and feel and puts your relationship in a much wider context, often when your own judgment of what is normal has taken a bit of a battering.

I was pre-mumsnet when my relationship went through its horrible turmoil, and I don't know whether talking about it here would have made any difference or not, but I've seen some great advice offered (some rubbish too, but you can't guarantee good advice from anywhere).

Seriously, Anny, don't leave! Just don't hang about AIBU all the time, it really is a bear-pit. And really, and truly, Relationships is for people in trouble and people who want to help them.

I do know exactly where you are coming from. Relationships need to be worked on and there probably are people who give up too easily. But equally, there are people who are putting up with a miserable existence rather than a life, and there are those who have either been through the same or who recognise the signs. They will be the ones who will tell the poster when the relationship is causing more pain than comfort and when this poor woman who has worked and worked on a relationship just needs to call it a day and give up and move on.

Camping is a much nicer topic. Everyone there is lovely!

Why should people work on relationships? You don't die from being single. Children don't want their parents to be unhappy. If you don't want to work on the relationship then it's not worth working on.

Don't try and pretend you've been misinterpreted, OP, people are just disagreeing with you. It's not the end of the world. In fact it's the stuff AIBU and most of mumsnet thrives on. :)