AIBU to think non vaccination is child abuse

[alittlevoice]

There was this discussion in another thread and i thought i would make a new thread so it doesn't over taken someone elses

To me not vaccinating your child is akin to child abuse because you are putting them at undue risk of disease which is preventable due to scare mongering or from quack doctors that have long been struck off the medical register and shunned from the medical community

I hate the assumption that because there has been no reported cases it means you shouldn't vaccinate your children it's because children have been vaccinated regularly that there has not been a epidemic

leading doctors (not the quacks) have been worried for some time about the rise of mumps because of the scare mongering and children not getting vaccinated and get seriously Ill and have to be saved by modern medicine (which quack parents are always keen to take up on with there anti vaccination stance)

rubella has a incubation period as many other diseases so if your child has it and you dont know and child is near a pregnant woman and she loses her child due to non immunisation I don't understand how as a parent you'd do that to another person

So the long and short of it is why are some parents touched in the head and think they have the right for there child to possibly kill unborn children and infect younger babies too young to have the choice (and for those saying this is far fetched its as plausible of something going wrong from immunisations)

But if people have valid concerns (I'm fully vaccinated btw - including rabies, and some of the others that you don't get given in childhood vaccinations here in the UK) - and they're not all "wakefield and quacks" - there is other reasearch as well that could contraindicate their children then I have no issue with them not vaccinating.

Actually I've never met anyone who didn't vaccinate at all, only a few that didn't give the MMR - but they all gave singles instead (when the mumps was still available).

I know of a few more people that delayed the MMR until their child was a little older, for various reasons (actually DS1 was 2 by the time he had his as he was ill so bloody often and they kept telling me to come back when he was better ).

For now though - no vaccinations are compulsory in the UK (and only 2 in Singapore as mentioned previously in the thread) and much like the rest of the medical intervention (or lack of) that we have access to in the UK I can't get worked up about it.

Who knows - maybe my 3 vaccinated boys din't actually get the immunity from their jabs - most aren't 100% effective anyhow (actually sods law will dictate that one of my children probably hasn't got 100% immunity from everything they've been vaccinated against and they'll get it at the worst possible timing)

YABU
Child abuse is hitting ur child. Sexually abusing ur child, starving it leaving it in dirty nappies for long periods of time.

It is not "putting your child at heightened risk to a disease"

And so I assume from ur opinion of the definition that any time u get sick even if it's just the cold that you move out or send ur DC away till ur better so as not to put them at "heightened risk" from illness!

Oh and u don't smoke, eat bad foods, exercise everyday, and disinfect you & DCs hands everytime u touch a surface in public. Never cross the road unless green man is showing. Insist that doctor comes to u lest ur child catch something from another patient in waiting room.

Wasn't quarantine used alongside the vaccine in the fight against smallpox? I think in parts of England it was actually used as the first point of call with really good results....Google Leicester method.

RE the TB vaccine, I think the reason we stopped giving it to everyone in the UK is because it was shown to be a bit unreliable.

Montparnasse - there are outbreaks of the diseases even in populations with a vaccination rate above 95%. Also, if you think about it. It isn't possible to know what the vaccination rate of everyone is because vaccines don't offer lifelong immunity so many adults will be effectively 'unvaccinated'. 95% of children being vaccinated does not really tell us much about the population as a whole.

I was vaccinated against rubella aged 12 - and found out during my 2nd PG that I have somewhere between PG's LOST my immunity to rubella.

I am extremely thankful & grateful that MOST parents do immunise their children against rubella - if not chances are this baby would have been lost/born blind etc. Still I've got 2 months to go, but I have been advised no cases of rubella in my area last few months (though there were several reported outbreaks in my borough in 2009). This was the closest to 'advice' any medical professional could give me - which in itself was very worrying.

I think rubella will be more of an issue for women in the years ahead as people nowdays get immunised against it (or not) as a baby/child. Chances are a significant number of these kids will grow up to be young women without rubella immunity in their 20's or 30's (having lost it like I did) - so unless they are going to be screened/reimmunised as teenagers, they may well be Mums-to-be at high risk of catching rubella, particularly if the trend not to immunise children against it continues.

I can't tell which kids are immunised and which aren't and rubella has long incubation period - so apart from avoiding all kids there wasn't much I could do.

Baroque as someone who's child has just had chicken pox, kids are contagious long before the spots appear - that's why it's so contagious.

Also (for the benefit of the lady in the park yesterday who was really horrible to DD), just because you can see spots, doesn't mean they are contagious. Once all the spots are crusty (and no fresh ones are appearing) they are no longer contagious!!! So no need to run away screaming in horror!

As someone who had chicken pox at 16 (very sick, 1000's of spots absolutely everywhere - yes internally too), believe me getting CP as a pre-schooler is the way to go. We were quite grateful DD got it at 3 - halfterm, didn't interfere with any planned holidays, well before new baby arrives etc.

FindingStuff - that's one of the problems with the vaccine - you don't know how long it is going to last and, as you have found out, it can be gone at the worst possible time! The thing is, many adults are probably in the same situation as you, their vaccine immunity has gone and they are wandering around potentially infecting pregnant women - the unvaccinated child is an easy scapegoat but chances are you are just as much at risk from the person standing next to you at the checkout.

For those of you who say unvaccinated children are putting mums at risk - unless you have had your own child's immunity test you have no idea whether or not they are immune or whether they too are capable of spreading rubella. This is why checking your own vaccine status is so important.

FindingStuff, if it reassures you at all, rubella is most risky in the early weeks and after 15 weeks it usually causes no problems at all. :)

YANBU, an emotive argument not presented in an always-rational manner but a fair point made.
The comments from those who believe you are unreasonable and vaccinating causes x,y and z may want to stop and think about the impact of not vaccinating on others.
Those with allergies to the vaccinations are put at risk by the selfish actions of those who could vaccinate.
Having seen first-hand the legacy of Polio I can think of no good reason to not vaccinate where we have the ability to protect ourselves and others.

YABVVVVU

There are risks to vaccines too, you know. Parents who don't vaccinate have usually taken a lot of time and care to read everything they can and have weighed up the risks and decided which option to take.

I hate it that people who think non-vaccinators just go 'nah, don't fancy them' like they couldn't give a shit.

Oh, and the risk of your chidlren getting killed in a road accident is far, far higher than them suffering complications from illnesses if their immune systems are strong and they are healthy and they get appropriate medical care as necessary...so can I suggest that, by taking your children out of the hosue you are also abusing them? In fact, the house is qutie dangerous too...so you may need to just keep them in one padded room to avoid exposing them to any risk at all. Then we'll all know you're a good parent and not abusive at all.

YABVU

I am pro-vax but if parents decide not to vaccinate then it is their decision. And they have likely spent hours debating and researching the topic. To accuse them of child abuse is an insult to them and to victims of actual child abuse.

FFS.

It is a legitimate parental choice.

Of course YABU.

Next you'll be telling us that choosing not to BF is child abuse as it places your baby at undue risk of infant death and all sorts of diseases, I presume?

Oh no, sorry, that'd be a pile of steaming judgemental wankery none of your business wouldn't it.

YABU

Op thinking it is irresponsible is one thing but if you seriously think it is child abuse then you clearly are as thick as shit have no real knowledge or experience of child abuse.

YABU and being a complete tosser.

Physical child abuse is hurting your child deliberately, nowhere does it state that not vaccinating your child is bad.

I would suggest that the vast majority of people who are anti-vax know far more about what is in them than those who go along without thinking about it.

All of my friends went along quite happilto get the swine flu jab and were horrified when I did not but I had looked into it and asked my HV many, many questions about it and the cruncher was when I spoke to a doctor friendabout it and he said he would'nt give it to his children because it was an emergency vaccine and he did'nt believe it had been tested properly. Ijust was notwilling to take that risk.

In the mean time BTW 2 of the friends who had that vaccinehave since had swine flu, one them twice and there has been so much doubt about it still being active thsi year or do they need to have it doneagain. That to me says the 'professionals' don't know enough about it so I am not willing to unneccasarily put something which may or may not be harmful to my child because others think I should!

FindingStuff - I know about Chickenpox DS1 had them 6 weeks before DS3 was born, DS's last spot crusted over the day I had my show - which was 24hrs before DS3 was actually born! - but this boy CLEARLY had chickenpox - just freshly coming out in them too - so still contagious - thankfully the nursery realised straight away and sent him home with his "proud" mother.

DS2 and 3 still looked spotty for over a year due to hyperpigmentation on them all - actually nearly 4yrs on and DS2 still has one or 2 on his back that never went back to their normal colour.

What a horrible sweeping assumption OP. A lot of parents (myself included) have legitimate reasons for choosing (after much soul searching) not to vaccinate. This kind of awful black and white stance reminds me very much of the time that someone shouted at me in public for bottle feeding my adopted son. Without the full story, it is both unwise and disrespectful to use such emotive language as "abuse".

I have no intention of risking my own children's lives or wellbeing for the sake of yours, alittlevoice, other people's or for the sake of pregnant women. That's the main reason - we were born healthy, there would be an immediate risk in having them injected with all manner of shite whilst not vaccinating them only presents a risk if we were to contract the disease against which vaccination might work.

My children remain unvaccinated individuals in a largely vaccinated society... as do I, my mother and my Grandparents before us.

Apologies for my tone and for this this rant to those who don't need to be bored by it and who have heard it before but this is to answer the inevitable questions for the benefit of the OP:

1. Yes it is a selfish decision. Completely. Tough - my children, not yours, are my priority.

1. Yes, it might be dreadful if everyone acted as I did. It might also be dreadful if the PM handed over to the BNP but the chances of that happening are pretty damn remote too.

1. Yes, I'm prepared to live with the consequences if my decision goes tits up.

1. No, if I lived in a society which required vaccination of children prior to them being admitted into school I would not vaccinate. I would home educate.

1. Yes I've done my homework and given the matter considerable thought over a number of years.

1. Yes, i think you're an utter loon to accuse someone of "child abuse" because their considered opinions about injecting children with all manner of chemicals and dead animal parts which have been researched (and sometimes rushed onto the market, such as HPV vax) on animals regardless of species differences.

1. If you vax your child and you are so convinced of the efficacy of the vaccinations you have nothing to fear from my unvaccinated children, myself or my mother, have you?

1. No, in all my 46 years I have never had any of the illnesses routinely vaccinated for, neither have my teenaged children or my mother, who is in her late 60's nor my late Grandparents. Anecdotal, yes, but relevant to us and to my defence of my family.

There... I think that might have covered it.

So, if you'd like to pm me for my name and address I'll happily give it to you so that you can report me to SS for child abuse.

Let's see how far you get.

Nonsense. Such a question creates scaremongering and finger pointing so much so that everything is regarded as abuse and the villagers will be out with their burning torches.(Remember the paediatrician whose house was attacked?)
You might as well say that not equipping your child to deal with the real world by educating them in a culture where nobody loses, someone else is always to blame and inculcating the idea that everything is due to them by right without working for it is abuse of the first order.

In fact thinking about it......

Excellent post Vallhala!

oh, FFS grow up, OP.

yes, YABU.

there are a variety of reasons why not vaccinating makes sense for quite a lot of people.

Scaremongering is what the Govt and NHS do to make sure you have as many strains of virus injected into your child.

It's each to their own. My ds had meningitis and tetanus and that's where it stops. He's one on Thursday and I'm looking forward to telling the surgery he shan't be having the MMR.

It isn't "abuse". It's making an informed decision.

Valhalla- you took one of my points;

If you have SUCH faith in the vaccinations that you give to your child, then my child being a possible carrier of any of the illness shouldn't bother you. The good ol' vaccine will prevent your dc from catching it

Shockers, I'm horrified, disgusted and furious for you that someone shouted at you for bottle-feeding.

Regardless of why you did it, you weren't doing anything wrong - on the contrary of course, you were nurturing your child. I wish I'd been there when it happened, I'd have made the nasty so-and-so's ears burn with my response.