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in thinking jesus can NOT cure homosexuality as it is NOT an illness

677 replies

thefinerthingsinlife · 22/02/2011 13:02

christian lady has written a book claiming jesus can cure homosexuality

I'm not getting into the debate of wether there is a God/Jesus etc. It just this has really mad me angry, how can you cure something that is NOT an illness. I find this extremely insulting and judgemental.

OP posts:
LeninGrad · 23/02/2011 17:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 23/02/2011 17:23

Hymie - what has 'not natural' got to do with anything?

BooyFuckingHoo · 23/02/2011 17:35

getting into a big steel bird and flying accross the atlantic aint natural. so?

kaid100 · 23/02/2011 18:25

Not that it would really make any difference about the rights or wrongs of homosexuality, it should be noted that the Bible doesn't record Jesus ever saying a single word about homosexuality. It's not mentioned in the Ten Commandments either.

thefinerthingsinlife · 23/02/2011 18:36

Isn't there something about 'a man shall not lay with another man'?

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 23/02/2011 18:46

Yes, in Leviticus along with all sorts of other prohibitions which no-one nowadays is fussed about (well maybe some Orthodox Jews are)

HecateQueenOfWitches · 23/02/2011 18:51

leviticus is old testament, isn't it?

I thought Jesus came along and, basically, said to forget everything in the old testament!

So christians, such as the woman who has written the book the OP is on about, surely should disregard the old testament in its entirety? And since jesus didn't say anything about it, he clearly didn't think it worth bothering about. He was more about love your neighbour, help people, be nice.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 23/02/2011 19:00

What Jesus may or may not have said has very little to do with the opinions and attitudes of many people who describe themselves as Christians.

LadyOfTheManor · 23/02/2011 19:03

?For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?? (John 5:46-47.)

Questions: What law was Jesus born under? What law did He live under? Answer: The Law of Moses (cf. Gal. 4:4.) Did Jesus endorse and follow the Law of Moses? What did the Law of Moses say about homosexuality? (Lev. 18:22; 20:13; Deut. 23:17.)

Consider: Since Jesus was born and lived under the Law of Moses, and since He endorsed the Law of Moses, and since the Law of Moses explicitly condemned homosexuality, then could we correctly say that Jesus also condemned it?

HecateQueenOfWitches · 23/02/2011 19:03

That's true.

From what I can see, God (and Jesus or equivalent) have very little to do with organised religion, which seems to me to be about power, politics, control and, well, cold hard cash.

I believe in God. I do not believe in organised religion.

LadyOfTheManor · 23/02/2011 19:04

Yes, Jesus did condemn homosexuality in His Word. The good news is, ?there is hope for the homosexual; he has reason to believe there is hope for a brighter future. Paul states that some at Corinth had engaged in homosexual acts, but they had been washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus (1 Cor. 6:9-11.) The same can happen today. As anyone who repents of a sin, the homosexual can be forgiven. He can experience the same freedom and joy that any other sinner knows when he becomes a Christian. The Bible condemns homosexual sex but clearly states that non-practicing homosexuals can be saved?

I've found these "answers" on the net they are not necessarily what I think

LadyOfTheManor · 23/02/2011 19:05

The image of God is both male and female and is reflected in a godly union between male and female where the creative power of God, His life-giving, His self-giving and His moral nature are perfectly expressed. This is only possible in a heterosexual union.

When God created a partner for Adam He created Eve - not another Adam. This means that perfect partnership requires some level of difference as well as a level of similarity so great that Adam could cry out loudly, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh". Sexual intimacy between a man and a woman is the normal method of male/female bonding (emotionally and physically) because it corresponds to the design of our bodies and because it is the normal means by which offspring are created.

If God had intended the human race to be fulfilled through both heterosexual and homosexual marriage, He would have designed our bodies to allow reproduction through both means and made both means of sexual intercourse healthy and natural. Homosexual anal intercourse carries a high risk of disease, this is recognized in Scripture where gay men are said to receive in their bodies the due penalty for their error (Romans 1:27).

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 23/02/2011 19:06

LadyOfTheManor - But it's all academic, what with it being a load of old nonsense.

DillyDaydreaming · 23/02/2011 19:06

Cannot believe we ae getting in such a stew over a work of FICTION.
I actually thought initially it was some right wing religious nutter writing a book and presenting it as fact. Lost interest and all my annoyance once I realised it was a work of fiction - but hey the reporters will be reading this, it'll get in the papers and the author everyone is condemning will make a mint. See the irony?

LadyOfTheManor · 23/02/2011 19:07

If it was considered "nonsense" by every single person in the world, this thread wouldn't exist.

alemci · 23/02/2011 19:07

no he didnt say to forget it. i think he did challenge the way OT was being at times abused e.g. divorce but not to disregard OT.

agree Hecate about love your neighbour etc.

GrimmaTheNome · 23/02/2011 19:13

Cannot believe we ae getting in such a stew over a work of FICTION.

or one supposedly inspired by a fiction Grin

LesbianMummy1 · 23/02/2011 19:18

LadyOfTheManor I find it very hard to take you seriously when in your profile it says "Reading, writing, cooking, baking and I attend church (born again Christian) and Bible study and even host the Jehovah's Witnesses for 3 hours every week while I convince them that their ways are wrong!" surely if jehovahs witnesses are wrong why do you believe the scriptures they base their religion on?

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 23/02/2011 19:19

Ladyofthemanor - Even those who believe in it just pick which bits they believe and which they don't. It's pretty irrelevant what is in scripture when people just pick out the bits that support what they want to believe in.

I find that if someone desribes themselves as christian that tells me almost nothing about what they believe.

LadyOfTheManor · 23/02/2011 19:22

Lesbian- If you've ever read "The New World Translation" their Bible has been altered in many many ways, even the original Greek that they claim to study isn't correct...this I can prove (wrong thread, wrong time!)

I'm not saying I agree with what was posted before, that is from 3 different websites-just their collective opinion.

LadyOfTheManor · 23/02/2011 19:23

TheCoalition-I agree there's many different branches of Christianity based on tradition and translation-calling yourself a Christian doesn't indicate ones' beliefs.

LesbianMummy1 · 23/02/2011 19:24

people face discrimination because of social attitudes. Unfortunately, these attitudes are often taught by churches and, sadly, the Bible is frequently used as a weapon to ?bash? lesbians and gays. It is important to remember that such hurtful things are not a reflection of Christ, or the way God wants the church to be, or even what the Bible really says.

Only a small number of passages in the entire Bible refer to same-sex sexual activity (in just six out of sixty-six books of the whole Bible). Only one relates to women! Obviously this topic was not of great concern to the biblical writers.

What are these passages?

The passage that is most famously mis-used is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (Genesis chapter 19)
Two angels, disguised as visitors, visit the city of Sodom, to find Lot, a Jewish inhabitant of the city. The men of Sodom want to ?know? (yadah - a Hebrew word that can mean sexual intercourse) the foreigners who have come to Lot?s house. In essence they want to rape them in order to show their social and cultural dominance over them ? a pattern of sexual behaviour that was common at that time.

This story is not a condemnation of homosexuality, but is a story about rape and inhospitality. In other biblical texts (Ezekiel 16:49, Luke 17:28-29) Sodom?s ?sin? is not identified as homosexuality, rather, the sins were pride, failure to help the poor, and lack of hospitality to foreigners. Hospitality was a very important part of this culture and the men of Sodom violated this value.

Another Old Testament passage that is frequently misunderstood is from the Book of Leviticus. Leviticus is a book of laws and is still observed today by Orthodox Jews.

?You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.? (18:22)

?If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.? (20:13)

There are two important things to remember when reading these quotes:

Leviticus is a law book, written hundreds of years ago. Christians who quote these two laws do not generally follow the rest of the laws in Leviticus ? such as not cutting men?s hair, not eating shellfish or wearing clothes made of mixed fibres! The laws were written to help the people of Israel keep themselves pure and separate from surrounding cultures. Showing dominance over other Jewish men by having sex with them was one of the practices to be avoided. This is not the description of a loving, same-sex relationship we know today.

What about in the New Testament?

The apostle Paul wrote letters to the new Christian communities that began to develop around the Mediterranean after Jesus? death and resurrection. In these letters, Paul is often giving advice to these new Christians, especially encouraging them to live in a new way, which is different from the cultures and customs around them.

In some of these places, it may have been that men would have sex with shrine prostitutes as part of their pagan worship. In Greek culture, it was common for an older man to take an interest in a younger boy, to socialize and educate them. These relationships were also sometimes sexual in nature.

?So do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! Fornicators, idolaters, adulterers, male prostitutes, sodomites, thieves, the greedy, drunkards, revilers, robbers?none of these will inherit the kingdom of God? (1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

?The law is laid down not for the innocent but for the lawless and disobedient, for the godless and sinful, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their father or mother, for murderers, fornicators, sodomites, slave traders, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to the sound teaching that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God? (1 Timothy 1:9-11).

A comparison of these verses in several translations of the Bible indicates that there is some confusion about how to translate two Greek words in these lists of vices Paul has listed. The two words are arsenokoitai which is described in various translations as ?homosexuals,? ?sodomites,? ?child molesters,? or ?perverts?; and malakoi which is used in various translations as ?catamites,? ?the effeminate,? or ?boy prostitutes.?

These Greek words are difficult to translate in the context of these passages. Malakoi is a common term and means ?soft.? It can refer to clothing (as in Matthew 11:8) or moral matters, meaning ?undisciplined.?

Arsenokoitai is a rare word and is made up of arseno meaning ?man,? and koitai meaning ?bed, lying, or having sex with.? When put together the word may mean ?male prostitutes.?

The reality is that no-one really knows what behaviour Paul was describing in his letters.

And finally....

The only passage that mentions passion between women!

?For this reason God gave them up to degrading passions. Their women exchanged natural intercourse for unnatural, and in the same way also the men, giving up natural intercourse with women, were consumed with passion for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in their own persons the due penalty for their error.?(Romans 1: 26-27)

Again, Paul?s meaning here is uncertain. The Revised Standard Version of the Bible, published by Oxford University Press, suggests that Paul was condemning excessive sexuality activity, rather than sexual orientation. Other scholars see this as part of trying to keep the new Christians separate from the cultures and practices around them at the time.

Again, we don?t really know what Paul was trying to say.

Did Jesus ever say anything about being lesbian or gay?

No he didn?t ? although he did talk a lot about love, about justice and about not condemning others!

LadyOfTheManor · 23/02/2011 19:55

Lesbian- Then why didn't God make it so homosexuals could reproduce?

LeninGrad · 23/02/2011 19:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

GotArt · 23/02/2011 20:01

LadyoftheManor But were the said homosexuals at Corinth "washed, sanctified and justified in the name of the Lord Jesus" because they engaged in homosexual acts or was it just a label given to a group of individuals that had yet to convert to the monotheistic lifestyle? And is heterosexual anal sex OK? At the time of 'Jesus', Romans were notorious for orgies and such and hence why these ideas against homosexuality flourished. Religions demonize all sorts of things that they want to control. Plus, the notion of marriage came long before the idea of God.

I think Jesus was really a metaphysician, if he existed at all. If he was so prolific, why did no other writers at the time ever mention him but those sited in the gospels. Just wondering really.

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