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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to understand how it is possible for a patient to starve on a NHS ward?

198 replies

GastonTheLadybird · 22/02/2011 09:14

I don't have much experience of the NHS and I was shocked to read this blog:

here

If this is true, and I guess you have to assume it is, of course peoplemare going to starve on hospital wards. Logistically it just doesn't work.

Surely it could be arranged so that family member could feed the patients? I know I would be happy to do that if my Mum or Grandmother were in hospital. Although I guess it might not be possible for everyone.

OP posts:
GKlimt · 22/02/2011 16:36

KityKata Do you think that this chaos on the ward could be improved by setting out a 'timetable' so that meals, ward rounds, medication, handovers [nurses & medics], visiting don't all cluster around the the same time?

A dedicated phoneline for families with an ansaphone might help?

Do you think visitors should be around at mealtimes and be asked/expected to help feed their relatives? Or are visitors another distraction during such a busy time?

I don't think that this appalling situation could ever be allowed on a Paediatric Ward

Sassybeast · 22/02/2011 16:40

Wamster - I don't believe that ALL qualified nurses need to have adegree but i do think that degrees have their place (I have to say that cos I've got post grads coming oout of me ears - despite my awful spelling on here Blush ) I think that there needs to be a healthy blanace. We need to raise professional standards and to do that we need to have nurses who are able to use research and literature to inform practice. We need nurses to be aware of the need to critically evaluate the care that they give (and all that stems from the research elements of a nursing degree) But so much of that can be done on the job - we have ongoing infection control audits - 2 nurses a month are assigned to observe hand washing compliance amongst staff and vistors and fill ina tick box sheet. it's not rocket science but some of it needs to be done.
But I don't believe that all nurses should have degrees. I think that some student nurses are struggling to cope with the academic side of their training and THAT is what is causing us to lose some of the caring, compassionate individuals who just want to CARE.
I have a 'friend' She did her degree in nursing, then went straight on to de her Masters in nursing. She is now a very high up, influential, nurse leader in a huge teaching hospital. She has NEVER worked as a staff nurse on a ward.

brimfull · 22/02/2011 16:43

We do ask visitors to come in to help with meals when needed. They are usually more than happy to help.
We also encourage family to bring patients own food if they don't like the hopsitals

agedknees · 22/02/2011 16:53

Wamster - the reason nursing care is in such a mess today is because registered nurses have too many patients each.

Countries such as Australia and some states in America have legalised RN to patient ratios. Research has shown that patient outcomes improve with a higher qualified nurse to patient ratio.

I am not a university trained nurse, just a bog standard old SRN trained nurse who has been working in the NHS for 30 years.

agedknees · 22/02/2011 16:54

KittaKatta - good for you. Can absolutely believe everything you have written in your posting.

lazylula · 22/02/2011 17:05

My nan fell and broke her leg and was in hospital. We used to visit in the evenings as we worked, but a member of staff from the home she was in (she had dementia and had to have 24 hr care for her own safety) also worked at the hospital and popped in to see my nan one lunch time and found her food sitting on the table untouched. We had told the staff numerous times that she was unable to feed herself as she had 'forgotten' how to get the food from the plate to her mouth. After that we tried as hard as we could to be there for at least one meal, usually the evenng meal.

We had, on her previous stays in hospital, seen people have food put in front of them and then collected half an hour later, when it was obvious the person was not in a fit state to feed themselves. It is very sad and I hope something is done about it soon as it shouldn't be happening.

perfumedlife · 22/02/2011 17:12

I know, I visited my nana yesterday, she was lying crying as she had wet the bed. She had asked the nurse for a bedpan, or to be taken to the loo, and in nana's words, 'they kept saying, in a minute, it's all they ever say'. She waited two hours, and then when she was wet they accused her of lying, saying she never asked for a bedpan Sad

My nana is a real lady, and no bodies fool. She told them she was 89, being treated for breathing problems, not intelligence issues or alziemers and how dare they call her a liar. She wants to write and complain, and that's all great, but it doesn't ever change.

MadamDeathstare · 22/02/2011 17:25

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

northernrock · 22/02/2011 17:27

My dad was in hospital with a stomach bug and pneumonia.
He was barely eating (never had a big appetite) and my step mum and I were there for hours a day each, bring him food, power bars etc and trying to get him to eat.
We noticed that the catering staff would bring food for him but never record what, if anything, he had eaten.
Nutrition was ignored and considered unimportant to well being.

He began to get gradually better.

Then the doctors decided he unable to eat properly and shoved a feeding tube down his throat.

He pulled it out in his sleep every night and it would often take hours for the staff to get around to re-inserting it, so he had nothing, no water, nothing by mouth for hours.

I kept telling the staff he needed to drink, and questioning their assertion that he couldn't just do so normally, but they wouldnt have it.
They said an ear nose and throat specialist would come and have a look at him to assess this. They put in a request.
Two days later the specialist had not come. I was frantic.
My dad had become rapidly weaker,really disoriented and now was, I think really dehydrated.

A week and a half later, after being moved to the HDU, and much to the amazement of all the doctors (and us) he was dead. The post mortem showed organ failure.

I truly believe that if we had pulled him out of hospital and not let them insert the feeding tube which didnt work he may still be alive.

He was 59.

MadamDeathstare · 22/02/2011 17:28

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

McDreamy · 22/02/2011 17:34

Great post KittaKatta I qualified in 1994. After a career break to have my children I'm not sure I really want to go back. Sad

perfumedlife · 22/02/2011 17:37

northernrock I am so very sorry about your dad. What a dreadful end to his too brief life. Terrible.

RunAwayWife · 22/02/2011 17:41

My mum was in hospital for 4 months, we visited every day.

Some of the people in mums ward(s) did not get visitors Sad and some of the elderly people were treated as nothing more then a nuisance, one lady was put on a commode and left there for an hour calling for help Sad when I got to the hospital to see mum I went and told the nurse and after another15 mins I went a dragged a nurse to help the poor woman.

I was so glad when mum came home.

BoobyMcLeaky · 22/02/2011 17:57

*KittaKatta I qualified in 2006 with a dip and you should see the looks I get from students now 'I'm getting a degree'. Really? Fab for you. Honestly, some of them don't seem to care about patients, they just want to pass placements (with at least an A thanks). God help you if you criticise them, 'but I have top marks for all my assignments'.

Back to the thread. I can see how people starve in hospital, it shouldn't happen, but I don't know how to begin changing things, and I'm lucky, I'm a RNChild!

ilovemyhens · 22/02/2011 18:05

This makes me glad that I don't work in the NHS. Care homes are difficult enough, but hospital work just sounds impossible Sad

springbokdoc · 22/02/2011 18:11

Hospital doc here - I have rarely met a proper nurse or enthusiastic student (not including some student nurses who don't seem to want to actually nurse) who doesn't realise the importance of feeding.

But they are absolutely bogged down with the most ridiculous paperwork. They practically have to write down everytime the pt sneezes. There is reams and reams of stupid sheets that need filling in about four times a day and heaven forbid if they don't do it because they're actually looking after a patient. I personally have seen a manager telling off a nurse for this and when the nurse tried to explain that they were helping me, got told that she's "not interested in excuses, just do it". Almost all nurses work to the best of their ability given the restraints of their job.

To say that they should 'prioritise feeding' is sadly naive. From my POV they need to prioritise IV drugs such us antibiotics (this is how resistance is bred), painkillers (surely no-one should be left in pain). But what about input/output and obs? We need to be able to see trends to identify sick pts. And then there is assistance to toilets. And comforting sick patients and their relatives. And we also need help to roll pts so that we can examine them. Once you start to think about all the pulls on a nurse you can see how difficult it is to just prioritise feeding alone.

This turned into a bit of a long rant. Sorry Blush. What do I think will improve matters? Bring back proper matrons :)

edam · 22/02/2011 18:12

Maybe things would change if the board directors were made personally responsible for patient safety, not just meeting the budget. A chief exec who overspends gets the sack. One who stays within budget by not employing enough nurses will prosper.

Boards are in theory responsible for patient care, but in practice it's way down the agenda, while finance is at the top. We need an identified person - the chief exec or a board director with clout - whose job is at risk if they fuck up. THEN you might see the board paying some attention to the quality of patient care.

Btw, the endless call buzzer thing - a Dept of Health project has re-organised the way some wards work so nurses have to check on patients at risk of falls and pressure ulcers every four hours. Apparently this is revolutionary... anyway, nurses are v. happy, falls and pressure ulcers are down and call buzzers are not ringing constantly becuase peoples' needs are being met. Project is in York and Brighton.

Wamster · 22/02/2011 18:16

I qualified about 5 or so years ago, back then it used to annoy me that I would have to sit through about ten lectures on 'nursing concepts'( hours and hours spent learning what this academic or another had to say about the concept of privacy-hello, surely this sort of thing needs no real explanation. If you haven't got the sense to realise that patient may need a curtain around them when using loo, why does a person go into nursing? What a waste of time.) and other such stuff that did not seem to have much relevance to the actual job, now it makes me angry because the nurse training system is in severe need of a 'back to basics' approach and, it seems, is having an impact upon patient care in the real world outside the classroom.

All to boost the ego of the top knobs in nursing who think it should be a 'profession' on a par with medicine. And we are suffering as a result of their ego trip (s).

PonceyMcPonce · 22/02/2011 18:22

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

gallifrey · 22/02/2011 18:34

When I was in hospital with GBS I was paralysed from the chest down and only had use of my left arm.
I'm right handed and couldn't eat left handed so left my food.
They just came and took my (full) plate away without saying a word, it wasn't recorded that I hadn't eaten and basically nobody gave a shit.

I didn't eat for 2 days and nobody even noticed...

OldLadyKnowsNothing · 22/02/2011 18:45

My friend was admitted to hospital to have a naso-gastric tube fitted (she's anorexic.) Three days later she still hadn't been fed, nor had the tube been fitted.

moondog · 22/02/2011 18:47

Shocking and illuminating thread but one with which most who work for the NHS can understand, bogged down as we are with ridiculous paperwork and target chasing. Not that there is anything wrong with either but use needs to be for a purpose and not an end in itself.

When presented with yet anotherp ointless admin task, i pointed out to the person foisting it on me that it was reaching a stage where i did more admin. than actaually doing my job. Her response was an unsurprised 'Of course' which I still can't get over.

I have fonud this book written by a surgeon an absoulte inspiration in terms of how an efficient system is possible with minimal cost.

KittaKatta · 22/02/2011 18:48

Dear Lord this is like my own personal therapy and for Freeeeeeeeeee

Siobahnagain, hi, we tried that to some level, but sadly no one told the patients. It?s like the joke on here about baby books, the baby hasn?t read them eh!.
It can take one little thing to ruin it all one small snowball and suddenly it?s all shit.

We did buy and install a cordless phone out of our own funds, so that it could be taken to the patients, but it still needs some one to answer it. As for the ansa phone you?re talking to someone who once got written up because I was doing a dressing on a patient, my HCA was feeding 3 patients and my student was sitting with a patient who was dying, her family were on the way in but at the time it was touch and go if they would get there on time and there was no way on this planet someone was dying alone on my shift if I could at all help it. (Poor little student had been told that if he moved from her side before the family arrived I would kick his arse from here to next week.) So we left the phone to ring, apparently a family member had tried to call twice, didn?t get an answer so called the complaints dept. I can?t imagine how she would have coped with an ansa phone. The ?wanker-- ?manager? who took her complaint told me that I didn?t know how to resource my staff appropriately, and as the dying patient couldn?t/ wouldn?t complain, I should have had the student answering the phone. If I recall correctly my answer was Fuck the fuck off , and the only reason I didn?t punch him in the face was because one of the House Officers (junior doctors) had a hold of the collar of my uniform, saying if you get sacked whose going to shout at me? And at the end of it who was going to have the time to sit and listen to the messages and answer them?

I started as an 16 year old auxiliary nurse only doing the job as I thought that it would look good on my CV, I wanted to be a teacher (I confess here I was considered (cough G&T) and did my countries equivalent of A levels at a month shy of 16, but no teacher training course would accept me until I was 18, Ma suggested hospital work, proof that I was a real grown-up Grin Although secretly she always wanted a nurse in the family. I was only going to do it till I was old enough to be a teacher Grin Old enough to care for the ill, confused and vulnerable, but not old enough to be a teacher?s helper?
I was the ward baby, petted and loved and fed, but also aware that if I didn?t do my job to the best possible standard they would kick 7 kinds of shit out of me.(think Hattie Jacques attitude).
So when I started, old style training was still going on, I saw it, I worked with the students, and yes there were some very good points but there were also teenagers not much older than me been left in scary dangerous positions in charge of 15+ patients. There was still a lot of doing by rote, do as I say, don?t ask, just do.
What do you mean why? Doctor said do it, so do it.
Sister said Jump, you said how high?
I can put my hand up and say I witnessed egg white and oxygen been used on a wound, and it worked, didn?t know why, then.
But as I said I was lucky enough to work with Nurses who had been through old style training and knew its bad points and drilled in to me always ask WHY? Doing something without knowing why is as bad sometimes worse than doing nothing.

For example: you?ve started a blood transfusion, you?re doing 15 minute obs, pulse, temp, resp, blood pressure, which of these is the most important and why. As an auxiliary I was taught one answer, as a uni trained nurse I realised that what I had been taught was wrong.

If anyone really wants to know I?ll PM, but I?m interested to see what gets said.

I was an auxiliary, a ward clerk(due to what I thought was a temp back injury)and then a HCA through the introduction of Project 2000 (met a man, got silly didn?t use my exam results, though possibly a good thing as I would have flunked my first year in uni, went wild living in hospital residences (killed at least half my liver in the social club)rather than in uni ones, no way I would have studied) Anyway, met a better man screwed that up, met the best one, but don?t tell him that I?m annoyed with him right now Grin bought a house had a mortgage was saving to go to uni, and was then offered secondment Grin Grin
Did my training, and to be honest I enjoyed it but then I was old enough to be able to see what was useful and what was shit.

And for the first few years I loved it I was a bit of a speciality whore I did Gastro, Endocrinology, Cardio, got lucky and got a funded placement in a Hospice, worked with people with addictions (still freaks OH out, he?s in a profession related to the police, he?ll mention an area and I?ll say oh yea that used to be the best place to get weed, X etc is it still?)

Settled in Endocrinology hence all the IV a/b?s and then over a few years realise that nurses were becoming the whipping dog for everyone, HO?s need short hours (which they did, trust me) so after years of no no no suddenly we were all been trained to place cannula?s and male catheters etc.
And writing wasn?t good enough anymore it all had to be computerised, fine by me, but a fair few of my colleagues were older and not so happy. Oh and the biggie shift rotation, for years you had a set of nurses who only did nights and some who only did days and the rest of us did a bit of both. Then all of a sudden this was no longer acceptable. Not a biggie for me. Huge for the parents who managed their childcare this way, DP worked days, Mum/Dad slept while DC?s at school then came to work. Or one of my colleagues who couldn?t sleep in the day and by 3:30am of night 2 was vomiting from sheer exhaustion.
And you as the senior nurse could no longer tell your junior staff off.
If I as an aux/ HCA was asked to wash Mrs Aaa and get her sat in a chair, that?s what happened. Or I explained why not and it better be a good explanation.
If Mrs Aaa, said oh no I don?t need a wash I encouraged, just hands and face (few refuse that)
Oh while we?re here shall I do your back?
Isn?t it lovely to have someone wash your back?
Shall I just do your legs, oh I have an idea, lets help you out of bed, just for 5 minutes and then you can soak your feet and I?ll give them a scrub and a bit of cream, you?d have to pay a chiropodist serious money to do that.
Oh and while you?re out I?ll change the bed, and check your bum, (for sores)
Oh look you?re out of bed, and here?s the mid-morning coffee, yes it is easier to drink sat up isn?t it I?d never thought of that.
Tell you what I?ll leave the bed for a minute, don?t want all that flying around while you?re drinking your tea/coffee.
And on to next patient usually with Mrs Aaa calling out encouragement, oh she gives a lovely back rub, get her to do your feet (I fucking hate feet, really they make me sick, working in Endocrinology the amount of toes I found in beds uuuuuuuuuuuggggggggg)
When I was the nurse in charge I?d ask HCA/ Student to get Mrs Aaa washed and out of bed
HCA/ Student N-Mrs Aaa, you need a wash
No I don?t, how dare you
HCA/ Student N-Can you get out of bed
No

HCA/ Student N-Mrs Aaa doesn?t want a wash

Me: Mrs Aaa has dementia, and to be nice has clearly from the smell wet the bed, she needs to be washed before the ammonia from her urine starts to eat away her skin and she needs fresh bedding.

HCA/ Student N- well I can?t force her can I? That would be against her human rights.
Me: persuade her?
HCA/ Student N-that?s morally wrong!!!
Me: head explodes! Blood, grey matter everywhere, the little bit of me left thinks oh shit I?m going to have to clean that ?cause the private out sourced cleaning company won?t touch anything that could be biological matter. FFS they?re a hospital cleaning company. . . Dies

And gets written up for being a bully and accused of being a racist.

NancyDrewHadaClue · 22/02/2011 18:51

Wow. I don't actually know what to say. This thread has been enlightening in truely horrific manner Sad

From a patient/carer pov rather than that of a nurse/HCP. I would like to see better communication between the hospital and the "users" (for want of a better word).

Reading the blog was shocking - the nurse seemed to really hate the families/visitors and likewise I imagine they would mostly think of her as unhelpful and uncaring where in fact there was a massive breakdown in communication.

Perhaps it is time to accept that the system is broken. That wards are understaffed and that nursing teams have too much to do in the way of paperwork etc.

Put some of the onus back onto the families: be honest, explain that the nursing staff can no longer fulfil many of the roles that we have come to expect them to fulfil. Actively encourage patients to be visited regularly, preferrably for at least one meal a day. Explain in advance that phones cannot be answered between hours of x&y and that it is important that information exchanges can take place with one family member at a designated time.

Most people would do what they could, but I think what frustrates "users" at the moment is this pretence that "everything is fine" and then you are faced with a grumpy miserable nurse who largely ignores you without understanding the reasons why.

moondog · 22/02/2011 18:51

Kitta, thanks for taking so much time to post in such detail.
An absolute education.