to understand how it is possible for a patient to starve on a NHS ward?

[GastonTheLadybird]

I don't have much experience of the NHS and I was shocked to read this blog:

here

If this is true, and I guess you have to assume it is, of course peoplemare going to starve on hospital wards. Logistically it just doesn't work.

Surely it could be arranged so that family member could feed the patients? I know I would be happy to do that if my Mum or Grandmother were in hospital. Although I guess it might not be possible for everyone.

[Sassybeast]

Agree re the paperwork. As an example, when a patient is admitted, We have to fill in a form titled 'medications on admission' with all the medications that they are on, including dosages and frequency. We then have to list the medications again in a separate part of the documentation entitled 'current treatments and medications'. We then have to fill in a 2 page risk assessment of 'self administration of medications' - looking at things like patient cognition and compliance with regards them giving themselves their own medication. We don't USE self administration in our unit I could assist 2 people with eating their breakfast in the time it takes me to write the same thing 3 times.
The doctor will then write up all the medications on the drug prescription charts, the nurses medication lists are inserted into the nursing notes and are never looked at again - until it's time for a documentation audit.

[mumofone1984]

When i came off my motorbike a few years back i severed a main artery in my foot and bled profusely.On arrival at the hospital the staff asked my mother to hold onto my foot. I remember it vividly there was a pool of blood under my bed and the blood was dripping constantly.

The Consultants at the hosp. tried to save my foot and i remember coming round in the high dependancy unit after a 12 hr op with a line feeding into my neck. The nurse who was assigned to me was very very rough and hurt me. I was so out of it I had no idea of the time and so i asked the nurse. she told me and that was fine but when i had the audacity to ask again i had my head bitten off. She told me to look at the clock but I didnt have my glasses and couldnt see. She was horrible, thinking about her now brings tears to my eyes.

eventually i was transferred to a unit where i had to lern to live with my limb and walk etc. We were required to go to walking school every day. The first night I was in the unit i had a temp in the night and I told the head nurse i was feeling unwell. She didnt believe me. Three hours later i started bleeding and it transpired that a vein hadnt been severed correctly.

I have been in and out of hospital countless times and been very poorly indeed. But each unit or ward I was transferred to had one 'bad egg' who made our lives as patients much more uncomfortable than was needed.

There were of course kind nurses and doctors, but more often there were staff so rushed off their feet they couldnt make time for everyone. I as many of the other posters have said have fed patients who otherwise would have starved. Not nice.

[mumofone1984]

sorry i went off on a tangent there! people do starve in hospitals ive seen it :(

[KittaKatta]

Sadly like all work places there is always one shit, even more sadly it is usually easier to get rid of an STD that it is that one shit Nurse/HCA etc.

[AmazingBouncingFerret]

KittaKatta, I'm going into hospital soon. I hope I come across someone like you.

[TalkinPeace2]

when I was in hospital a year back I ended up helping a fellow patient to eat
and had a run in with a doctor who was insulting another patient for not listening to him - when the word DEAF was written across the top of her notes

spent a day in A&E recently - 9 hours without even being offered a glass of water
got to the ward and was glared at for asking for some food

too many people in civvies with clip boards and carpeted offices
not enough medical staff

[brimfull]

one of the things that really annoys the fuck out of me is the band 7 ward manager(worse than useless) spends ages going through out patients paperwork making nice lists of the forms that haven't been filled in , only to present the list to me

now if she had an inkling of the patients she could have spent that time to actually fill in the fucking forms herself

but no she spends most of her time glued to her computer in her office

[brimfull]

our patients not out patients

[GKlimt]

kittakatta

Hope that you don't think I was being patronising, stating the obvious or trying to therapise you - not my intention at all. Apologies if I came over that way.

I've written 2 long replies to your last post but both have evaporated before I could post them I'll try to fix the tech problem and try again later.

[KittaKatta]

siobahnagain, not in the least.
I'd have said if i thought that, believe me I really would

[agedknees]

KittaKatta - you are my hero. Agree totally with everything you have written.

[GeorginaWorsley]

As a paediatric nurse of 25 yrs standing I can totally agree with everything written by Kitta etc.

The role of the qualified nurse has changed so much in the past 15/20 years,there are now so many intra venous drugs,central lines,paperwork,computer work,assessments etc etc.

[eons26]

ggirl - that reminds me of one particular nurse I remember, who was rapidly rising up the ranks. She had a student one day and said to her at 9.30am on an early shift - you really should start writing your notes now.

The student replied "i'd like to actually see the patients first".

[Sidge]

I was lucky enough to be a military nurse and worked in an outstanding hospital with good staffing levels, plenty of equipment and that was scrupulously clean.

We had matrons, sisters and ward rounds - all very old fashioned; beds had to be made, anyone that wasn't bedbound had to be out of bed sat up washed, shaved and neatly attired, lockers totally clear apart from water jug and tumbler, wheels pointing straight, hospital corners on the sheets etc!

Discipline was core, and standards were high. We were not only educated to diploma level along with the civvie nurses at the university, but we trained the old fashioned way to provide quality care. It wasn't quite the days of the Back Trolley and enemas but it was all about proper nursing.

I left the military and whilst looking for a job did agency work in the local NHS hospitals. The difference in experiences was immense and made me slightly ashamed to be a nurse on some wards. I would be transferring a patient from A&E to the ward at three in the morning to be told by the staff nurse that I couldn't do a handover as the patient "wasn't my team and the other nurse is on her break".

I got a job in primary care and haven't looked back. There is not enough money in the world to make me want to go back to hospital work as I think I would go bonkers working there. I became a nurse to nurse, to care for patients and their families from cradle to grave, and sadly for most registered nurses that no longer happens in many hospitals now. And the more senior and experienced you get the less hands-on care you get to do. It's wrong and it's shameful.

[catsareforlife]

Nursing notes should where possible, be written as soon after the care is given-that could be anytime of day or night.
It is essential to document the care that has been given from a legal standpoint(if its not documented legally the care hasnt been given) and also to inform the nurses coming on shift etc after you -its called communication !
If I see a patient in clinic at 08.30 I will document my conversation/care of that patient immediately after -bit of a myth that Nursing documentation is unneeded-check out the NMC guidelines !

[Sassybeast]

Cats - I don't think that at any point, anyone on this thread has said that nursing documentation isn't needed. The posts have highlighted the issues that are caused by repetitive and non essential documentation. And it's great if you are able to see one patient at a time and then complete relevant documentation uninterrupted by the needs of 10 or 12 other patients. And presumably if you work in a clinic/outpatients setting, you don't have to try to prioritise many of the basic nursing needs that many patients have - nutrition being one of the most relevant in the context of this discussion.

[CityGirls]

God, this thread is so upsetting. I never realised it was so bad in hospitals. The last experience I had of hospital visiting was about 15 years ago. There were so many of our family visiting that our mum was spoilt rotten but I do recall seeing one or two elderly people who seemed lonely and never had any visitors or attention. They loved us being around and told us how much we brightened their day. We would keep them company and get them drinks etc. I did worry after mum came out as to who would look after them after we'd gone.

After reading this post I would be really interested in volunteering to help around the wards at mealtimes or to answer the phones for the nurses. Do such volunteering posts exist or do you have to be qualified in some kind of healthcare to do this??????

[KittaKatta]

Sorry just been off reading Militant Medical Nurse blog and I so get her.
She might not put it all in the nicest terms but she?s right from what I?ve read so far.
And just seen that her post was from 2008
Anyway, I have recently been a patient, oh what a barrel of laughs that was. . .Actually due to the EXCELLENT painkillers I was on it really was a giggle. . .

Anyway, prior to op, I was admitted last year with the medical issue that meant I need an op this year i.e.: Cholecystitis.
As I was writhing around in A/E muttering make it stop make it stop make it stop make it stop make it stop make it stop make it stop NOW!!
I was spotted by one of my old students who still owed me.
(He once introduced me in a drunk loud whisper to a large pub with amazing acoustics as the woman who finally taught him how to wash a willy, so he owed me!)

He is now slightly important and got me a side room, which was lovely and before anyone does the whole unethical stuff, I gave my youth, my spine, most of my liver, all of my patience and a lot of my taxes (yes when you rant I pay your wages you know what I pay tax too you shit!!) to the NHS for over 20 years.

So after a couple of days of verrry good pain killers and IV anti-b?s and discovering that I still have no feeling in the crook of either arm (I used to let the HO?s practice Phlebotomy and cannula insertion on me, hey I was young and drunk at the time) You have a vein running up your arm known colloquially as the houseman?s vein

Anyway when I came to, from the infection etc, and persuaded the consultant to let me go home I was sat in the room waiting for all the usual discharge crap to happen, another patient took a very serious turn for the, well, not the worse but for the end road. Could see it all from my room

When I was still on the wards it would have been oh we?re moving you, we need the side room, this is happening (wonders now if I was a bully and if there are old threads out there about the shitty nurse who turned them out of room. Or was it was the Hattie physique as well as attitude????)

I got the ward sister, (creep crawl) did I possibility mind, they were so sorry, (creep crawl) they would expedite (sp) my discharge meds, so sorry, understood totally if I didn?t feel able to leave the room.
WTF, a patient is dying give them and their family some privacy and dignity, even if that means turning some silly cow (i.e.: me) out of a side room
Don?t apologise, you?re the ward sister just bloody do it. Once you start apologising, it means you?ve done something wrong!

The NHS is free at point of entry, so many many other civilised countries you would need to have insurance or a lot of money to have any medical treatment. Never mind have your elderly relatives in an acute medical bed while waiting for a social services paid for nursing home bed.

As for Claire Rayner, lovely women I?m sure (God rest her) but seriously when she was nursing it was a whole different ball game. Never mind the fact that in her day it would have been a very very brave person to complain, if it had actually been listened to, after all you didn?t question Doctor! How dare you!

For a little while in British Nursing a Nurse?s opinion was respected, asked for even.
I believe I was lucky enough to witness and be a part of that and sad that I saw it die though hopefully not for good.
There was a point in my working life where patients and doctors and other nurses treated each other with respect.
If I called a doc and said you know Mr/s Bloggs, all the obs are ok but they?re making me feel yucky,(yes I did use the term yucky sorry) please come and look.
And they would, and a lot of times it would be that my subconscious had picked up something that I hadn?t consciously processed yet, and the patient would do something silly like drop their blood sugar, or bleed out or just stop breathing, buggers.

And I would look after ?my? baby doctors, I would rescue them when patients/ relatives were inappropriate or rude or whatever.
I would hold their hand (secretly) at their first cardiac arrest/ death, and occasionally hold their head/hair later in the social club .

I still don?t know what happened but something did, you can blame what/who you want but for some reason a division appeared between nurses and doctors and patients and families? I really really don?t know why

Oh and catsareforlifeyes cats are for life as my 2 sleeping on my sofa while I sit on the floor so as not to disturb them will attest to.
But as for your comment ?Nursing notes should where possible, be written as soon after the care is given-that could be anytime of day or night? to quote myself earlier Fuck the fuck off.
If it?s a choice between writing in the Kardex or helping a patient to the loo, well I know what I?m doing, and it ain?t getting my lovely blue pen out.

And if you want to quote ?the? code try points 1,2 and 3
You must treat people as individuals and respect their dignity.
You must not discriminate in any way against those in your care
You must treat people kindly and considerately

[brimfull]

catsareforlife-slightly different writing for clinic patients when you are focusing on one pt at a time don't you think? Get real ffs.

[JemAndTheHolograms]

nailak Tue 22-Feb-11 13:43:24
"i agree that it is a problem in our society, families should be there whenever possible to look after their elders, this may no be possible in all cases, but surely the majority of pensioners have children and family in this country?
if that means their children have to put up with hardship and disruption to their life so be it, i mean think about how much disruption and hardship your parents went through raising you and looking after you, you ungracious sods, sure you didnt ask to be born but your parents could have neglected you and left you in your own shit and starved you as a baby and a child but they didnt did they".

I agree with in principle. If it was my mum and dad I'd be there every single day as would my sister. But not everyone has had a nice childhood and been looked after by their parents have they? My MIL has been in hospital for months at a time for the past few years. Her care has ranged from excellent to appalling. Everything you describe in your post nailak happened to my DH and his brother. He had the most appalling childhood and was unbelievably neglected. He goes to see MIL sporadically. And then it is out of guilt (although why he feels guilty I don't know he's done nothing wrong), BIL has vanished and doesn't see MIL at all. DH has social workers ringing him in work everyday screaming at him down the phone because he's not doing enough for MIL. If it were me I'd tell them to fuck off and let her rot in there, but then DH is a more forgiving person than me.

[agedknees]

I work in an outpatients clinic (having spent 28 years on the wards, but body falling apart now, and as everyone knows, where do you put the falling apart nurses? Outpatients!!!

It's a world of difference to working on the wards. You have one patient, you sort out that one patient. Then you have your next patient.

You don't have bells ringing, cardiac arrests, drug rounds, lunches to give, patients to feed etc etc.

I will put up my hand and say I don't think I could physically cope on the wards now.

Staffing levels on the wards are just a joke. And departments that should support the wards, like pharmacy - well, what a joke. Wasn't a report done 20 odd years ago that nurses should not be mixing antibiotics (IV) on the wards? That it should be done in pharmacy.

Anyway, its getting past my bedtime.

[slightlymad72]

Kitta, my mother would love you. She began her nurse training in the seventies, then had to give it up for motherhood, she then went back early eighties, qualified and then trained in midwifery. She loved her job, it was the patients that made it worth getting up whatever time of day (shift dependant of course) there where times she was very late home from work not because of paperwork but because she couldn't leave a patient, she had to see the job through. She is retired now but wishes to go back, sadly it is now impossible due to there being no places on the Return to midwifery courses in our area and they are unsure if any can be made available in the future as funding is being cut
My sister is hoping to start a degree in Nursing this year, although she wants to be a midwife, my mother has told her that she does it the proper way, learns the nursing skills first then goes on to midwifery, she will make sure that my sister understands that the patient is paramount, that they are humans and not illnesses and they deserve respect and dignity at all times. I hope that my sister when she does qualify will be allowed to put into action what my mother teaches her and for her skills to not be drowned in admin etc.

[edam]

My sister's a nurse. She often has to stay for at least an hour at the end of her shift to write up the notes - because she's damned if she's going to ignore the basic care needs of her patients in order to fill in forms. BUT she's only able to do that because she's not on an acute ward.

My other sister has just got a place to study midwifery (well done that woman) so no doubt I'll be getting horror stories from her soon enough too...

[KittaKatta]

The thing is agedknees no offence but you?ve done your time at the front (no offence to out patients I have seen recently how aggressive people can get while waiting in out patients)
I seriously couldn?t cope with it any more either, the saddest thing is all of my physical disabilities are due to my job and if I could I?d run back in a minute, if I could run