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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to hate it when people talk about "indie" schools

1002 replies

gobehindabushfgs · 16/02/2011 09:31

in an attempt to make it sound cool, edgy and alternative? it isn't. it's private education. it's a right-wing, ultimately selfish decision.

"indie" Hmm

OP posts:
EleanorJosie · 16/02/2011 16:07

My dad went to Manchester Grammar when it was a state school Smile

JoanofArgos · 16/02/2011 16:08

Joni - erm, yes!

Betty - what's your definition of 'middle income'? Average wage?

BettyDouglas · 16/02/2011 16:08

Just to clarify, those parents who use the independent sector will naturally see a lot more of these parents and thus will comment on their existence.

GrimmaTheNome · 16/02/2011 16:09

That level of ignorance is just unbelievable.

so unbelievable I'm not sure it actually exists beyond the realm of stereotype Grin

TheFallenMadonna · 16/02/2011 16:09

No, not hovering around middle income land. Middle income, as in median income, would not fund a private education. My job, way above median, would not fund it. DH's would.

LondonMother · 16/02/2011 16:10

Of course lots of rich people have no idea what it's like to live on a low income. But you really can't say that every parent who has a child at independent school is like that. My son's school has very generous bursary funding and I know for a fact that there are boys in his year who definitely wouldn't be there if their parents had to pay more than a very token sum towards their education. I'm talking about 95% bursaries in total. One of these boys has an older brother who got an assisted place at another school (big age gap) and is now a cardiac surgeon in the NHS. No one can ever say for certain but if he had gone to Warwick Park School in Peckham, which would have been the alternative, his chances of getting to medical school wouldn't have been great. Now that seems like a good return on state investment to me.

But as you say, things have changed in state schools over the last few years. If our son was 11 now, I don't know that we'd have made the decision we did 6 years ago.

JoanofArgos · 16/02/2011 16:10

So if we say middle income is £30k a year before tax - and that's a bit above average - you think a family with that coming in can afford to spend £9k of it a year on school fees, while paying a mortgage as well?

jonicomelately · 16/02/2011 16:11

Joan

Why are they wrong? The school they'd have had to send him to (in Liverpool) had a terrible reputation. He's probably going to go to medical school now. Why deny him that if they were willing to use their own money to do so.

BettyDouglas · 16/02/2011 16:11

I guess I'm thinking of couple with a combined income of 40-50k. So, teacher and builder say.
I know this is in excess of the average (though not sure if average is 20something). If they haven't got a large mortgage they could pay fees for 2 children outside LOndon at a push.

JoanofArgos · 16/02/2011 16:11

Well, Grimma, someone did just display precisely that level of ignorance, so I guess it does exist just a teeny bit, no?

BettyDouglas · 16/02/2011 16:12

Joan if middle income is 30k are you saying thats both earning 15k or just one working for 30k?

JoanofArgos · 16/02/2011 16:13

So actually your point is, if someone's earning quite a bit above average and they only have a small mortgage, you think they could probably pay fees?

I don't think that's quite the point you set out to make, is it?

It's also not true, btw.

GrimmaTheNome · 16/02/2011 16:13

Musta missed that. Or maybe read it differently.

Got to go get t'lass off t'bus now.

LondonMother · 16/02/2011 16:14

MGS has never been a state school. I think you're thinking of the direct grant system, which I mentioned above.

BettyDouglas · 16/02/2011 16:15

What is average wage? 20k? So say, 40k combined. Lots of families are living on 20kpa. So the other family does the same and uses one wage for fees. I see it all the time.

Or are you saying that there aren't families living on 20k?

EleanorJosie · 16/02/2011 16:16

Yep, sorry I Googled - a quarter of places were state funded when my dad went, that must have been it.

JoanofArgos · 16/02/2011 16:18

There are families living on £20k, yes.
So you're saying if a family brings in about double average wage, they could send a child to private school - though I'm not sure what house you could afford, especially now, on £20K.

But yes, erm, ok. If a family earns twice the average wage and can live in a very small house or flat, they could perhaps afford school fees.

Smashing.

UnquietDad · 16/02/2011 16:20

"I wonder if the anti-independent school people would be quite so much so if their only available option were one of the sink estate ones with very poor behavioural records and appallingly low academic standards? One of, for example, the South London schools, with issues surrounding knife crime, drugs, bullying and very, very low achievement levels?"

Some people, believe it or not, have to send their children there and make the best of it. It's not a "choice" between putting up with that and "choosing" to buy your way out of it.

If we were genuinely "all in this together" (genuinely as opposed to in the pseudo-Dave-Big-Society way) then the differences would not be so stark.

I can't believe that, after five years on here trying to get people to see sense on this issue, I still see people re-hashing the old, tired, inane, rickety arguments about "giving things up" and "making sacrifices", and implying that everyone could afford school fees if only they scrimped and saved and gave up their second car and their family holiday. It really isn't that simple for the vast majority of people. Have you ever met any poor people? I mean, really poor people? People who don't have the capacity to make "choices" and never will have? It's unbelievable. Unbelievable.

Vallhala · 16/02/2011 16:21

"Ooooh the old local comp is full of knives argument.....

It's rubbish, it really is. The people who really, genuinely, do live in places where the local school is doing that badly are not the people who can buy their way out of it."

That, like Seeker's similar argument, is entirely inaccurate in my case. I have lived in that sort of catchment area, and no, I haven't bought my children an education because even if I'd starved I couldn't have afforded it.

I home educated instead. There was and is no way that my children would go to such a school.

Besides, the detractors to my argument have deliberately picked up on only one aspect of it, which was the most extreme one. It's not just about children in a grim catchment area being educated in a violent environment, though that happens, it's about manners, morals, standards of behaviour. It's about speaking properly, it's about discipline and respect. It's also about social graces and confidence as well as higher academic standards, smaller classes, better qualified and more experienced teachers and having a HT who knows every child's name, personality and family. But the knife thing is so much easier to take the piss out of, so do carry on.

I come from one of those odd POV, a working class South Londoner who went to a bloody good school, who believes in private education although she cannot afford it for her children .. and knows that the standards held by her own school are almost impossible to find in the state sector.

Additionally, as a South Londoner born and bred, yes, I do know what some of the less desirable state schools are like and I don't exaggerate how grim they are.

BettyDouglas · 16/02/2011 16:22

I'm not saying they should do it. I'm saying lots and lots actually do.

And the reason people mention it on here is that they vare the ones seen at the gates of the independent school. There are always afew parents like that at independent school so most indie parents know of them so mention them on threads like this.

Anyway, in lots of parts of the country you could sustain a mortage on 20k. Lots of people do.

JoanofArgos · 16/02/2011 16:23

Valhalla, you're wrong, it's MUCH easier to take the piss out of the manners and morals argument!

'Speaking properly' - jesus christ.

JoanofArgos · 16/02/2011 16:24

Right, so we have succesfully established that there are 'a few' parents in independent schools who bring in twice the average wage and find the fees.

And?

BettyDouglas · 16/02/2011 16:26

Anyway, it's more likely the ones on a combined income of 50k-60k who are sacrificing holidays etc to pay fees.

With 2 working parents, it isn't a ridiculous assumption to suggest that many have that combined income.

jonicomelately · 16/02/2011 16:27

I wish the teachers at my school had taken the trouble to teach us how to speak properly Sad

UnquietDad · 16/02/2011 16:28

Yes, I actually "choose" to send my children to the local state school not exactly so that they can mix with poor people, but because they are not that bright or sensitive, I want them to learn bad manners and improper speech, and I like the idea of their being taught in classes over 30. Didn't you know? I thought that much was obvious.

(People always choose the worst example they can find of their bête noire, rather than the best...)

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