to hate it when people talk about "indie" schools

[gobehindabushfgs]

in an attempt to make it sound cool, edgy and alternative? it isn't. it's private education. it's a right-wing, ultimately selfish decision.

"indie"

"I think lots of people from all walks of life have skewed perceptions of others rooted in their educational experiences."

Absolutely agree Madonna. My comprehensive school got probably above average results with a very mixed intake so on that score it wasn't a bad school, and being fairly bright my results were ok too, however there were several negatives for me:

-Bullying and name-calling was rife, and not clamped down on anywhere near as much as it should have been

• There was certainly a discipline problem and some classes were disrupted by badly behaved pupils
• With some of the teachers it didn't make any difference whether you made an effort or no effort, and they didn't seem to particularly like their job, or indeed children in some cases
• It was too big and anonymous
• It was uncool to be clever or certainly to work hard to get good results. If you got good results you had to pretend you had done no work for it.

Some of these things affect me now as an adult. The third and last bullet points in particular make me angry. I think this is why some parents who have come through this system and survived will fight tooth and nail or pay whatever it takes to get something better for their kids. My perception is that there are alot of schools still like this, or worse.

Mum clerical work, dad gas fitter. Comprehensive school (but in a grammar school area, so not completely comprehensive), university (undergrad and postgrad), teacher in comprehensive schools. Um - that's it I think.

Betty - dont you know that MC kids and their parents can change schools for the better by dint of their shiney fabulousness?

Tis easy.

Honesttly, the patronising self regard, is stumnning.

Just like some people use private health clubs and others use council-run leisure centres.

The thing is Pixie, its not 'just like' because your choice of exercise venue doesn't really matter. Education and healthcare do really matter, which is why the rights and wrongs of private education and healthcare are more complex.

On the one hand, they are so vital that ethically its impossible to argue against the proposition of equal access to excellent provision.

On the other hand, in a real world where resources are limited and all-round excellence can't be achieved - what then do you say to someone fortunate enough to have excess income? That they can spend it on any stupid material thing they want but not on the very things that matter most? That too, is (IMO) unethical.

You've put your finger on it there, Grimma.

Because when everyone in a catchment area who can afford to remove their children, does, then that means the school is not comprehensive any more, doesn't it?

eleanor - sounds like my school, tbh. I had a shit time there, watched friends who started in the first year bright and motivated by third year decide it wasn't going to get them any popularity and quite consciously start acting dumb. Clever kids weren't liked by either the kids or, I think, the teachers much. Facilities were shite, pastoral care nil. And I did come out of that not thinking much to state comps, to be honest.

But I do think things have changed, massively. I know my experience wasn't necessarily representative of 1989-1996, and my kids' isn't now, but everything I have seen makes me think that money and thought have been expended to make state secondaries infinitely better than mine was.

Of course, that might all change now.....

joan - I guess it depends where you live in the country.

Some indie schools, particulalrly urban day schools, have lots of pupils from many different racial backgrounds. Certainly no olligarchs or princes (no where near posh enough for those type of folk).

TheFallenMadonna.

That's interesting. You were very privileged by comparision to many. Your parents must be very proud of your achievements btw

I hope so JoanofArgos I really do. But I think fear of the state comp as it was in their day probably motivates a lot of parents - as well as some very real concerns too of course.

I hated school in 4th and 5th year and couldn't wait to get out to go to a separate sixth form college which was so entirely different - imagine most people being pleasant and wanting to be there and learn? Being treated like a grown-up. Wow- brilliant.

As I said, everyone is coming from a different angle so whereas I'm thinking of the amazing facilities at the 80acre site my Dcs had and how it was worth the money for us. Others had the idea of a prep as a little cliquey building on a small plot where they all wear nice hats and have 12 in a class.

Others talk of choosing private because of the awful alternative they were allocated by their LEA. Some peeople think oh well even my 3rd choice wasn't that bad so how bad can it be?

Poles apart in terms of experience, and there's your problem.

Yes, they probably do have kids of several racial backgrounds.

Probably less diversity in terms of income, though, I should think?

They are. Privileged in what way? I'm reasonably brainy exam-wise, which is very lucky for me of course. I had a couple of inspriational teachers, which was certainyl a privilege. And I have lovely parents who let me get on with things. I am tremendously thankful for them when I meet some of my students' parents. Or don't meet them...

Erm, but I have seen posts on this very thread about how the private school has more of an ethnic mix than the state!

might have been mine. But the the context was explaining the origins of the greater mix and pointing out it was more ethnically diverse but not more socially diverse. Not bragging about how cool it was.

Yup, there is no one reason why parents pay for schooling.

More palatable to think there is.
That we're all frightened of the state alternative.
That we have no experience of state.
That we want to ensure our children don't mix etc

The reality is that most of us have all manner of different reasons...need for wrap around care, preference for single sex, better SN provision, nearest school, most academic school, more sports...the list is endless.

But much easier to pretend we're all the same in our indie wankiness.

Oh there bloody well are NOT, Pixie! The fact that some 'indie' parents have no concept of a household income which would NEVER accomodate school fees no matter how many holidays they didn't go on or cars they didn't buy is just one of the many things that stinks about independent schools.

Grimma I know for a fact that DD's school is more ehtnically diverse than many of the state schools because the nearest town is predominanntly white.

Loads of asian and chinese girls come from towns further afield to DD's school.

It was me who said our independent school was more racially and culturally diverse. I didn't say ours was more socially diverse but I did say that you get some independent schools who are socially diverse. I used Manchester Grammar as an example.

To be fair, that isn't a bad think about private schools themselves. It is a pretty poor argument for social breadth though.

joan surely those daft attitudes are just that, daft.

It's not a reflection of the school, just that one daft person. And they'd be that daft wherever their kids went to school.

Joan, of course for many people private education is out of reach.

However, there is a large number of people hovering around middle income land who cannot afford it without lifestyle sacrifices. So, they make a decision. Some will chose state and have the hols and cars etc, others will opt for school fees and miss out on the other things.

So most independent schools will be full of parents struggling to pay fees and not having holidays etc. It doesn't mean everyone could do this. Of course not. But these people do exist and lots of them.

OP - I don't think you care at all about the shortening of the word "independent". I think it was just a convenient hook for yet an other rant against private education. I would have more respect for you if you had just come out and said it.

The problem with views like the OP's is that it assumes people are like little plastic playmobile figures that come from a particular "set". If you are from the private school set you can only be used in private school games. If you are from the sink estate set you can only be involved in sink estate games. you have to stay in your box. The reality is that people have a wide range of principles, social views, interests and priorities. Someone who sends their child to private school might be an inspirational teacher at a state school. Somone who was privately educated might work for a charity. People like the OP assume that everyone who uses private education is selfish and focussed on nothing beyond their own family. which is rubbish.

TheFallenMadonna.

Privileged in the sense that your parents both appear to have had great jobs.

JoanofArgos.

Somebody told me the other day about a boy from a very poor area whose family (parents, grandparents, aunties etc) all club together to send him to a private school. Apparantly he's doing very well there and they feel it's money well spent. Are they wrong to think that?

But they might encounter some people who could not afford private school, and understand that it is not just a matter of buying an old car? And hence be less daft in that one small but significant area?

That level of ignorance is just unbelievable.

Had jobs at all in the eighties, indeed!