To think it is not poverty to blame.

[goneanddoneitnow]

I see in the news poverty being blamed for childrens bad behaviour and under achievement as well as for health problems.
I think it is attitudes that need changing not income.
If attitudes could be changed through education of parents and students then I think you would find that income and health will improve as a result.
If children are reaching school unable to sit still, listen, share etc, without basic skills and knowledge then what are the parents doing?
And secondly what is the point of free nursery places from age three?
Shouldn't nurseries be preparing children for school?
The majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of the time and effort their parents and family put in and the effort they them selves put in acquiring valuable skills and knowledge.
How many times have you seen big lottery winners lose it all in a few years?

Lesley good post. I suspect thatw e are in some ways similar- like you poor childhood, bad school, now going post grad research.

Your point 2 is important. Class and poverty do not put an end to pride, and many people will do all theyc an to coverpoverty to keep up appearnaces. I know we are like that and that dignity matters. I also think that will become a social issue- there is going to be afr mroe MC poverty due to cuts to state employment etc and whilst (IME) being poor and WC all felt very much part of teh group experience, it seems so much more shaeful and a sign of failure within the MC world we now seem to inhabit. That may well turn into people not accessing such things as free school meals due to the pride issue and become a negative trait when in the apst it worked to keep people motivated towards a certain ideal.

One thing I always think when people talk of designer trainers is that unless you are an expert it's fairly impossible to tell the difference between designer and copy. Most markets seem to stock a wide range of fraudulent options and certainly I know through ways I wish I did not (friend's ex, was jailed) that the trade in such items is pretty strong. Personally when I see someone wearing a Juicy Couture top I assume it's a copy, not that i would knkow a genuine if it fell on me from 100ft bearing a sign saying 'I am a genuine article'.
I do know though that even within the poorer classes the whole designer thing varies- it's as alien to me as a WC council dwelling raised person as it is to anyone questioning it, and my parents seem to think second hand Next constitutes designer for all they show an interest. It's not ubiquitous, it just describes part of the social grouping.

Good post scram. People miss the point about pride and bullying when they see people on benefits wear nice stuff. Sometimes it's at the expensive of essentials as they don't want the kids to be bullied or feel ashamed. That or people get themselves into trouble with catalogues and credit cards.

Ah yes catalogues: they've saved (as have leased white goods and the Pru) a fair few from real issues but sent an awful lot into spiralling debt as well.

We were poor growing up. My parents divorced when I was very young, my mum remarried and I had a step dad and 2 half siblings. I grew up in a very run down part of London. While growing up I had my school uniform, one pair of shoes, and one other set of clothes. I didn't get pocket money, I had to get a Saturday job so I could afford the bus fare to college and buy my lunch there. My step dad was self employed and there were times when the income into the house was the child benefit!

We weren't unhealthy, we weren't badly behaved, we all went to school/college when we should and we've all gone on and made a success of our lives.

People who think they can solve the problem by chucking money at it are very short sighted. Its about parenting. So OP YANBU, though I think your phraseology could do with some improvement.

yes that was a really good, often overlooked point, that spending money on clothes is often the only way to retain a bit of dignity . Yes, that absolutely explains why kids whose parents are almost destitute will often have nice trainers and coats.

Sakura that was one of VERY many examples of reasons! It is a bit of it though.

And besides, mostly you cannot tell bey looking. DS4 has a cath Kidston raincoat; do i need to pop a sign on saying 'Thanks but we bought it when we were both working and I can;t ebat it s it has stains on the lining'? or make the boys wear badges saying 'OK, don;t worry it might be Boden but mum pikced it up on ebay for a few quid'.

There's a big group of people who don;t give a damn about labels as long as all is paid. there's a small group, usually IME underclass, who have a tribal aspect to it, and then there's people like DH and I who live in a MC area and send our kids to a school full of well off people and expect an upturn shortly (DH graduates in 2012, at which point I will do my PGCE year)- I don't
t want people looking down on me, the boys not fitting in, comments from the parents. If it means buying second hand I don't care but I do not want to stick out like a sore thumb. And of course ebay Boden lasts 4 boys better than brand new Asda anyway.

It's got nothing to do with being "able to tell by looking".
I'm talking about people who are the underclass, whose parents and grandparents are outside of the system, unable to hold down a job, unsure of how to go about an interview. I'm saying that such people are often criticized for spending money on expensive trainers when there's no food in the fridge.
But, as others have mentioned, being near-on destitute, doesn't mean your pride has been amputated. One way of holding onto it is by wearing fashionable gear. That is the "tribal aspect" that you mentioned.

People with a bit of education behind them can afford not to be so tribal about brand names

You seee sakura youa re saying a lot of what I said further up but I didn;t pick up you were being sarcastic earlier on: apologies, I ofetn make that mistake- lots of ASD traits in my genes, you see.

it doesn't help that I live abroad and my English is regressing so altogether me and you are not going to get very far are we! But I think we're saying the same thing..

Thgink so sakura LOL 9and we do know each otehr, cannot say my old name but we do, and we have agreed before and I know where you live ).

Country where you live

Not actual addy obv, would be weird!

The middle class push the working class out of the better schools, especially church schools where they are more selective. Then they think that because little Henry has done better academically, it must be because he is so much brighter and has such better parents. Its all about the middle class keeping the status quo and pushing those who might upset it out, as they have more money , it is usually quite easy to do. Usually excluding those on benefits and putting them down is a good way of keeping people where they want them to be.