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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think it is not poverty to blame.

362 replies

goneanddoneitnow · 13/02/2011 09:19

I see in the news poverty being blamed for childrens bad behaviour and under achievement as well as for health problems.
I think it is attitudes that need changing not income.
If attitudes could be changed through education of parents and students then I think you would find that income and health will improve as a result.
If children are reaching school unable to sit still, listen, share etc, without basic skills and knowledge then what are the parents doing?
And secondly what is the point of free nursery places from age three?
Shouldn't nurseries be preparing children for school?
The majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of the time and effort their parents and family put in and the effort they them selves put in acquiring valuable skills and knowledge.
How many times have you seen big lottery winners lose it all in a few years?

OP posts:
sungirltan · 14/02/2011 10:32

god this is such hard work.

not all benefit recipients are in dire poverty. some manage quite well. SOME have more complicated circumstances and or are affected by other factors which compound the poverty. for example and ex service user of mine lived in quite squalid conditions because her disabled daughter had continence issues which werr not being resolved by the OT/school/nhs etc. house was in constant disrepair because carpets had to be ripped up and mum couldn't afford to replace after the first time. therefore bare concrete floors and further continence issues. that was pretty bad imo.

yellowvan · 14/02/2011 10:32

It is about poverty, because of the effect poverty has on your opportunities in life, and on your experiences. People live on the streetsof our cities, and beg in shop doorways. That's poverty.

rightpissedoff · 14/02/2011 10:34

It pisses me off. I worked for 20 years and contributed. What am I getting out? Nothing. What have you or your parents put in? Nothing. What are you getting out? Something.

The benefits systems just won a lifelong vote for the Tories.

longwalk · 14/02/2011 10:35

Glasgow in the 1960s when I was born

Even my DH finds it difficult to believe what many parts of Glasgow were like. He's very well educated, liberal man yet he had no clue that around the time he was born into his nice, mc, bought home, that other children were living like that in the same country.

rightpissedoff · 14/02/2011 10:38

Theydon't have to live on the streets.

HumanBehaviour · 14/02/2011 10:39

"It pisses me off. I worked for 20 years and contributed. What am I getting out? Nothing. What have you or your parents put in? Nothing. What are you getting out? Something."

What have my husband put in? Lots. What have my in laws put in? Lots! (It's their son + grandchildren it is being paid for!)
What have me and my parents put in. Lots! It's all part of the EU.

And even if the exact money my parents and I have paid don't pay for the benefits my family is getting, it is still paying for someone else in need of it.

longwalk · 14/02/2011 10:40

Funny how 'the gorbal' is now a trendy place for young professionals to live! Grin

Easterhouse <a class="break-all" href="http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=www.eastglasgow.co.uk/trondra/images/housing1.jpg&imgrefurl=www.eastglasgow.co.uk/trondra/amenities.html&usg=__Ymx08tQIxzHSm17wjCiCcZKLlFo=&h=203&w=250&sz=16&hl=en&start=15&zoom=1&tbnid=sgaqOaB8Dsq3iM:&tbnh=150&tbnw=179&ei=CAZZTa6BG52ShAfsnbDaDA&prev=/images%3Fq%3Deasterhouse%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26rls%3Dcom.microsoft:en-gb:IE-SearchBox%26rlz%3D1I7ACPW_enGB402GB403%26biw%3D1201%26bih%3D654%26tbs%3Disch:10%2C358&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=557&vpy=312&dur=2103&hovh=162&hovw=200&tx=106&ty=92&oei=AwZZTbHaEs62hAe20PXKDA&page=2&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:2,s:15&biw=1201&bih=654" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">here

Ok, I think I need to take a deep breath, step away, make a cup of tea and remind myself I'm no longer there. I'm actually feeling slightly sick thinking about it all.

rightpissedoff · 14/02/2011 10:41

oh fine if your husband paid in

HumanBehaviour · 14/02/2011 10:43

And I am not planning to stay on benefits forever. I am planning to get a job when little one turns two and stay here and pay taxes for the rest of my life.

ambarth · 14/02/2011 10:43

most people have paid in.

lesley33 · 14/02/2011 11:24

longwalk
Thanks for the links, they bring back memories. I agree that most people had no idea the conditions many people lived in in the 70's. I think it is also why many older people object to the idea that there is poverty in Britain now.

I don't think its fair to have a go at humanbehaviour. Nobody likes everything about any country they live in.

Agree that with families living in very poor conditions, the problems are usually much deeper than just money - e.g. drink, drugs, mental health problems.

Thats why there is so much emphasis on trying to work with struggling parents when their children are very young, to prevent these situations happening.

I'm not denying that struggling wears you down; but I do think there is a difference between absolute and relative poverty.

rightpissedoff · 14/02/2011 11:24

well I did, and it's not there for me, it's there for a lot of people who haven't

sungirltan · 14/02/2011 15:59

street homelessness is not a matter of choice. i worked in a health centre for the vulnerably housed before i went back to uni. it was pretty shocking stuff. though actual street homelessness is less common than you think, all of the service users i met had very complex needs around mental health and learning difficulties. they were very troubled individulas living god awful lives and had suffered since childhood. dont you dare assume they had 'brought it upon themselves'.

homelessness to mean not in stable accomodation is unfortunately a massive problem in the uk because of thatcher destroying the social housing stock.

OnceHomeless · 14/02/2011 16:54

rightpissedoff

I've done a quick name change to post this because I don't want judgey people to identify me...

I have actually been homeless and lived in a hostel. Believe me, homelessness was not a choice and the people who were in the hostel - mostly parents with young children - were there for all sorts of reasons. There were refugees and there were people escaping from domestic violence, people recovering from mental health problems and people who had had their homes repossessed. The hostel was in a rough part of West London - my home town. I had to sofa surf for 7 months with an 18 month old DC before getting the hostel place. Once in the hostel the average time people waited for accommodation was just under two years.

Squalor didn't come into it. The accommodation was old and crumbling, with damp problems and poor drainage. It stank in there most days. We all had to share bathrooms (three bathrooms for 12 families) and the neighbours in the adjoining property behaved as if we were scum, writing grafitti on the doors of the building, along the lines of 'fuck off homeless druggies'. (I saw no evidence at all of drug use the whole time I was there).

I was very aware that I was only lucky enough to have hostel accommodation because I had a child. If I hadn't, I would have had to fend for myself and would have had no recourse to help from the council. These are the people who may end up on the streets.

I saw a huge amount of poverty in the hostel - not to mention overcrowding. We each had bathroomless 'units' which were one room and a kitchen no bigger than 1 metre square. There was a minimum of two, and maximum of five, people per unit. Each unit was about 12 feet by 10. We had no adequate cooking facilities and no laundry facilities. It cost more than 10% of my weekly income support payment to do my laundry - no washing facilities of our own, just the local launderette. Having a telephone was out of the question, which made me feel very isolated. A car? Don't make me laugh. We did not have television, computers, etc. and I did not feel the lack of them really. I took my DC to the park and the library almost every day and for DC's sake did everything I could to retain my sanity.

I was also very aware that people like you held people in my situation in complete contempt and disdain.

Fortunately, I had a fantastic Lone Parent Adviser at the Job Centre and a great psychiatrist, who kept me going. After 8 months of hostel living I got a job in another part of the country and began to rebuild my life. If it hadn't been for tax credits I wouldn't have been able to afford to work.

Please don't say there's no such thing as poverty in this country. Just because you choose not to see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.

Sorry for the long post.

OnceHomeless · 14/02/2011 16:56

Sorry, for that long post, but just want to add, this was not in the dim and distant past. It was 7 years ago.

sungirltan · 14/02/2011 17:15

oncehomeless - so sorry you had to experience this. thank you for your post. i corroborate that this is a common experience :-(

GabbyLoggon · 14/02/2011 17:29

sometimes it is poverty

OnceHomeless · 14/02/2011 17:51

I do have a problem with the OP's assumption that poor people are thick and/or have a bad 'attitude'. But then I'm probably a bit sensitive on this particular issue.

GORGEOUSX · 14/02/2011 17:55

goneanddoneitnow You are right, of course.

ScramVonChubby · 14/02/2011 18:05

I think the OP is wrong about it not being about money but for different reasons.

I worked for a parenting charity that got real emasurable results: we went under financially. First thing Social Srvices did when they had big cuts ws scale back the funding we were geting despite the fact we were far cheaper than them- we were working with the famillies running just above SSD intervention level.

And not all poor people have low responsibility or low expectations yet they still have far bigger hurdles with changing things; if they're rural poor they might not be able to access FE now EMA has died a death, they are less likely to have any security of housing and face many more moves of school- or even work, my friend ahs been housed 50 miles from her work as an emergency (DV) case and lost her job.

OTOH there are feckless people who don;t care; it's just not fair to label everyone like that, especially when so many face job losses etc at the moment.

ScramVonChubby · 14/02/2011 18:07

Homelessness is a matter of choice?

Really?

Not when tehre is no council housing: if you are a carer or disabled or even low paid self emp[loyed most landlords will not touch you, and the council cannot house you usually.

Landlord has to sell up and bang!

ScramVonChubby · 14/02/2011 18:09

Rightpissedoff every generation and member of my family paid in and we are the first to claim following a redundancy and a disability diagnosis.

Don't judge everyone the same.

expatinscotland · 14/02/2011 18:14

Divide and conquer.

Well said, OnceHomeless.

Spero · 14/02/2011 18:27

I found use of the term 'inequality' very helpful. I think poverty is too emotive to be helpful to this debate; if poverty must always be relative, you can't just ignore what goes on in other countries. And by those standards, I don't think poverty is the issue in the UK.

But inequality is an issue, obviously. the fact that social mobility appears to be going into reverse and we are ruled largely by Old Etonians is hugely worrying.

and btw I fail to see how it automatically makes one a DM reading Nazi to express surprise that someone defined as 'poor' can still afford high end electronic goods? Why isn't this a reasonable point to make? Genuinely curious about this. It seems to rile a lot of people.