To think it is not poverty to blame.

[goneanddoneitnow]

I see in the news poverty being blamed for childrens bad behaviour and under achievement as well as for health problems.
I think it is attitudes that need changing not income.
If attitudes could be changed through education of parents and students then I think you would find that income and health will improve as a result.
If children are reaching school unable to sit still, listen, share etc, without basic skills and knowledge then what are the parents doing?
And secondly what is the point of free nursery places from age three?
Shouldn't nurseries be preparing children for school?
The majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of the time and effort their parents and family put in and the effort they them selves put in acquiring valuable skills and knowledge.
How many times have you seen big lottery winners lose it all in a few years?

I actually think conformity is secondary to socialist policies. The RUssians are most definitely not conformist

Sakura I wasn't talking about Russia or socialist countries. I vwas talking about Japan and the nordic countries which are very conformist.

Sweetgilly, you talk about poverty in other parts of the world. Well, how about the POV of those who are from other parts of the world? Would that help?

here

Lesley, I grew up in Easterhouse as just linked to. We absolutely did not have enough to eat growing up. We didn't starve thankfully, because free school meals prevented that. But that was our food, basically. I also shared a bed with my siblings.

I went to school in second hand charity shoes. It's no wonder my parents were obsessed with education.

But why were you saying a policy to close the gap between rich and poor (as seen in Japan) wouldn't apply in Britain?

I assumed it was because you thought Britain was non-conformist. Well Russia is also a non-conformist country but well, they certainly had socialist policies

longwalk - I am 43 and spent much of my childhood in a room and kitchen - 2 adults and 2 kids in 2 rooms with outside toilet and no bathroom. I had free school meals till I was about 14.

I never remember being hungry, although I know as an adult my parents went without. I think things have got much better now. Families generally don't live with no bathroom for example, unless they are travellers.

My parents were also obsessed with education. But even though things were difficult, there still wasn't the absolute poverty that people in most parts of the world experience.

The majority of people in the world don't have access to clean water, sanitation, a leak free roof over their head, etc. When I talk to migrants from some other countries, they laugh at the idea that anyone in Britain these days lives in absolute poverty. They have seen the real things.

But I am not trying to deny the realities of bringing children up in some of the worst areas in the country.

sakura I am not saying that a policy to close the gap between the rich and poor wouldn't work - of course it would. I was saying that in Japan and the nordic countries, as well as low levels of inequality, they have a conformist culture, which also affects the level of crime.

Yes, but the overriding factor is without a doubt the equality of opportunity which comes from having government policies that close the income gap.
.

Lesley, I'm 44 and you probably grew up close to me (I see you're from G too!)

I have three big long-running memories;

1)The hunger
2)The shame. The charity lady would come to school and we'd be called to the teacher's desk and in front of everyone, measured for the second hand rags that she had brought in.
3)The love and support given by my parents and the fact that they were forever telling me that the way out was to study.

I know we had clean water but my father's health (miner) was appalling. He died at 52.

Easterhouse was a horrific place to grow up. I have no doubt conditions are better now and the last few years of tax credits etc will have helped lift families off the very bottom but in the 1970, it really was poor.

sweetgilly 'social worker 'nuff said' i presume you are applying a daily mail style archetype to me based on my proffesion. care to elaborate and justify? in fact i think you should if you want to validate your opinions.

obviously my opinions which are based on evidence i see all the time are invalid because i'm one of 'them pinkoliberal do gooder' types. right?

show me some evidence that poverty DOESNT exist in the uk. something anecdotal from the bloody dm won't cut it.

"Japan and the nordic countries are far more conformist than Britain. Yes this does lead to less crime. However, have also met people in UK from these countries who say they love the freedom in Britain. Depends what you value most."

I'm a Swede living in Britain and I haven't got a clue what freedom you are talking about. I feel nothing but trapped here.
My husband is on a low income and I'm a SAHM at the moment. This means we have to claim benefits in order to survive (I am very grateful we get these).
At "home" I would get maternity pay (classed as insurance payout, not benefit) that would cover 80% of my wages and we would not be in need of benefits. I would also be able to start working when DC is one to be able to support ourselves as childcare costs are 5% of what you earn. For everyone. Up to a maximum of £120 a month.

At the moment I haven't got a clue when I will be able to afford to work again.

I agree that it is shocking to look back at conditions in Glasgow in the 1970's. TBH in lots of places in the UK, I don't think it was so bad. Sheena McDonald grew up in a single end - 1 room - and I have heard her talking about mobile showers coming to the school as some of the children were so dirty - although not Sheena's family.

TBH I don't remember being hungry, although my mum would make some wierd concoctions with whatever was cheap or in the cupboard.

I do remember being told not to answer the door in case it was the gas/electric man coming to disconnect the meter. Wearing clothes handed down from neighbours and from jumble sales. And the sense of shame.

Like you, many of the men in my family have died because of the work they did. My father died at 46 - from asbestos in a factory he worked in. I hate it when people assume only well off people work hard. Some of the poorest working people work much harder than some well off people.

And like you, my parents were absolutely desperate for us to escape from this. They highly valued education, spent lots of time reading to us, taking us to the library and museums.

But honestly, the underclass that some posters are talking about aren't like this. As I said my ex boyfriends family were part of what you would now call the underclass. Most of the money went on drink; loud boozy parties whenever they could afford it and lots of petty crime and drug taking.

How my boyfriend was brought up was not just about money, but more about the ability of his mum to cope with every day life. The estate he lived in was awful. The flats were actually fine, but it was a dumping ground for families like this. He joined the army - one of the few ways to escape this kind of upbringing.

Humanbehaviour - The people I have spoken to who have talked about freedom have been young single people living unconventional lifestyles. Take your point that it is totally different for families.

i love the fact that as soon as youmention that someone "on the poverty line" haa plasma tv you are apparently automatically in the wrong

er no, actually we're not

if you've got a 400 pound telly you are not on thepoverty line even if your working neighbour has a bigger one

lesley: Ok, I'm sorry! You are probably right there.

And I did not mean by my comment that I don't like living here or that I am ungrateful we are receiving benefits.

Sakura: Thank you for bringing up 'fluff jobs', what a fantastically cohesive, esteem-building idea.

Here are some benefits of:1) stable , secure, available jobs, which may or may not be 'fluff' and 2) decent welfare paid above subsistence levels and 3) Proper support back into work of the type described in 1:

People become more inclined to 'give it ago', be it education, training, enterprise or career change PRECISELY BECAUSE thereis a safety net and something to 'go back to'. It's no wonder people are scare3d to try and fail. IDS has this all wrong if he thinks that cutting and tapering benefits will help. Not without the employment infrastructure it won't.

And we absolutely do have poverty in this country, to the extent that it reduces life expectancy in affected areas.

I only have a 200 telly, that means I must be poor

oh hang on -- I can't be, I've just been turned down for benefits despite the fact that I've made 20 yrs worth of contributions

oh hang on they were made more than two years ago so I don't qualify so that means I can't be poor after all

If I'm honest, I don't actually remember anyone who I would call part of an underclass. I remember once my mother telling off a bunch of teenage lads who were drinking and swinging from a bridge. They stopped, looked sheepish and said 'sorry Mrs Mac' I don't think it would ever have occured to her or them that they might swear and tell her to F off and mind her own business.

We were seriously poor and there was lots of alcoholism and DV but not an underclass as such-at least not that I can remember.

With regards DV; You'd know the families where the wife was always covered in bruises. Ocassionally, 3 or 4 other local men would go and have a word and it would slow down for a bit. I clearly remember once evening where my dad had been round to 'have a word' after my mother came home and told him about the state of some woman.

It is strange that far from a zero tolerance pov, it was accepted for the most other than the odd times where said man would go 'over the top' and properly do her over. As if it was ok for him to give her a few slaps.

yellowvan

You are right that inequality reduces life expectancy, but this isn't necessarily about poverty. People who win oscars live longer than those who have just been nominated for them (I think the difference is about 4 months?).

There is relative poverty in this country, although using international definitions,absolute overty doesn't exist.

Lesley Re: dumpoing ground. DEFINITELY an issue, and a result of the great council house sell off. Before that, council estates were mixed and there was no stigma. Once they house only the very disenfranchised, there is a stigma, almost a ghetto, which is very difficult to break free of.

I think there is also an issue re: local taxation etc as well. Which areas do you think needs the most services? Yep, the ones leasta able to raise the tax.

We need some serious thinking about distribution of wealth in this country. At the moment it flows upwards, when research would suggest (and experience of Japan) that downwards is the way to go: It helps economy grow, entreprenuership,falling crime, falling welfare bill as more ppl move into work. And thats looking at it from a practical POV, not a bleeding heart liberal one.

I think I'd just give up on any but the most beasic benefits now except for old people and disabled people and their carers, who can just share it out between them.

I'm sick of the fraudsters and the teenage pregancy. It's like a nation of children with their hands out to mummy. And stealing from her purse when she says no.

If it's so great in sweden why are you here HB?

I think cheaper childcare is key to a better society. It should pay to work, even if you are on a low income. (And it might even reduce teen pregnancies, who knows.)

I do remember a few families who were on the verge of been the underclass. But it was when I was 17 and met my boyfriend that I came across lots of underclass families. They seem to have all been housed together (dumped) in one very small estate on Glasgow.

It is the only place where I have ever been where people made sure - literally - that there was always somneone in the house to prevent burglaries. If I visited my boyfriend and he was the only one in, he won't leave the house until someone else came home.

More recently councils have tried to spread these families around. The idea being that they would learn from the better example around them.

I don't know if there are more underclass families, or if they are just more visible - because of media and council housing policy.

rightpissedoff: Everythings not better there, obviously. And I happened to fall in love with a Brit.
I am really sorry if my comment came across as disrespectful.