To think it is not poverty to blame.

[goneanddoneitnow]

I see in the news poverty being blamed for childrens bad behaviour and under achievement as well as for health problems.
I think it is attitudes that need changing not income.
If attitudes could be changed through education of parents and students then I think you would find that income and health will improve as a result.
If children are reaching school unable to sit still, listen, share etc, without basic skills and knowledge then what are the parents doing?
And secondly what is the point of free nursery places from age three?
Shouldn't nurseries be preparing children for school?
The majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of the time and effort their parents and family put in and the effort they them selves put in acquiring valuable skills and knowledge.
How many times have you seen big lottery winners lose it all in a few years?

Spero I think it's a fair question as long as the person being judged has a known history.

We (or rather the children- I don't even have an electric kettle, and I cannot say I am overly perturbed by that) have many high end games concoles etc- all, every one,* bought when we were both employed.

We are ahrdly going to strip and sell their Christmas-gifts-past are we?

And of course relatives etc DO buy gifts, and that is fair enough also.

*the exception being the laptop ds1 has, bought from his DLA becuase he has weak wrists and struggles to write at school.

Scram, fair point of course.

But I have had many clients who always seemed to come to court in brand new trainers and be playing on an expensive mobile phone - and then say they couldn't go to contact with their children unless the social worker bought them a travel card.

I can't shut my eyes to this kind of thing, and for it to bother me, and to influence how I approach this debate makes me neither a Nazi or a tosser, despite what some posters think.

Those people exist of course Spero

But anyone who argues there are no feckless idiots in the poor is as silly as soemone who argues only the feckless end up in poverty.

The key is to look at people as individuals. I cannot work until 2013 because of disability / childcare issues (DH does, though low income) but in my 'waitng' time I have amassed training, helped at school etc- all useful.

I do hate that some people seem determined to view us in the same light as somene who left school at 16, fatehred 23 chidlren he enver sees and has refused to work a single day.

I completely agree with you. But there does seem to be a worrying minority of posters who, if you try to point out that some people are crap and make crap decisions which bear no relation to the amount or lack of money they have, start bleating about how much you want to put children up chimneys.

Doesn't help the debate much.

I think those people are long term posters in general who hvae simply come up against so many of the actual bigots that they know the thread will go that way eventually anyhow (moi? name changer? never )

People get the existence of the feckless but those who are not should not be made scapegoats for that.

Spero - why are they wearing trainers to court, is it because they have no shoes? New trainers can be bought for £10 or less.

It is inequality that is the issue, because the inequality stops them taking part in society in a normal way - eg if their friends go to a restaurant, they cant afford it. If their friends go for coffees, they still can afford it. The children cant go on the school trips, cant have new uniforms, cant have hobbies, cant afford to have a friend round for tea... Birthdays, christmas, weddings, etc cause them to buy embarassingly worse (cheaper) presents than others or get into debt.

The main cause of poverty is inadequate income, arising from worklessness, low wages and the low level of benefits. Poverty rates in the UK are driven by entrenched inequalities of income, wealth and power. Policy makers need to combat these inequalities in order to build a fairer and more sustainable future for the UK.

Poverty is not simply about being on a low income and going without ? it is also about being denied power, respect, good health, education and housing, basic self-esteem and the ability to participate in social activities.

Spero do you work in the courts? I noticed I got harder views for a while when I worked with a certqain section of society that ws less willing to give it a shot; sometimes one only sees a distorted picture though. You wouldn't find us near a court- not through being guilty anyway.

There is plenty about being poor that can hold people back; as a child we had no heating except in one room 9and I am a child of the seventies) so I reallys truggled to do homework in winter with a big family milling around me. A few etachers helped by giving me a lunchtime room; those subjects I passed at GCSE- I passed the rest much later on, did my degree and am post grad now, and the ability to just get the work done counts for a lot (parents not unemployed BTW- never claimed a penny, just poor, mainly debt after a business went under).

It's the silly little things that make a difference: not being able to buy football boots for the team so the kids feel they are some kind of loser, struggling to replace uniform quickly if broken, parents who never did well ats chool themselves and just dont know about helping or how to work a PC or whatever.

Every child in the UK thank God has access to a meal and almost all a warm bed (parent dependant of course); it doesn;t amke everyone equal though, and sometimes small inequalities add up to a lot.

Spero - I like your posts.

In answer to the OP, poverty is not to blame, poor education (social and academic) which in turn leads to shockingly bad parenting is to blame.

I grew up poor, council house, dad made redundant when I was 12, on dole thereafter cos he was near retirement age etc etc.

The values I was taught by my parents made me work hard, have morals and know right from wrong and now my family is in the top 2% for income in the Country. I'm not boasting - I married a man with similar values and I make no apology for it.

I work in a designated "deprived" school - many of our parents are the ones who I see buying £20 worth of scratch-cards in the local shop, but send their child to school with no lunch or lunch money and expect the school office to lend it to them. HOW IS THAT JUSTIFIABLE? In any way?

I would expect there are many more parents who struggle to pay for the lunches at all

usual - of course there are. We have a very high % of FSM's.

My point is that it is always the same parents asking for credit, who I see (and I'm not making it up) - drinking lager and buying scratchcards at 9.30 in the morning, while simultaneously saying to teh school secretary that they cannot buy their children's lunch or school shoes until they get their JSA next Tuesday.

They would get FSM if they were on JSA

If it were lack of money in itself that were to blame for poor behaviour and attitudes, then to turn it on its head, you could argue that anyone of wealth, or above average means, should be whiter than white, full of moral virtue and never put a foot wrong.

So, how come all those already wealthy politicians fiddled their expenses, and cheated their way to even more wealth?

The fact is, some people have no moral compass, and will cheat, screw others over and generally have no respect for others. Other people won't. It simply isn't the case that poverty causes shitty behaviour.

As Spero rightly points out, it crosses all classes and cultures

Yes but then there are famillies like mine where the kids attend schools where there is no intervention due to low FSM numbers; who feed the children, clothe them and do our best but because we do that we become invisible. School are aware but it's a matter of oride that nobody else must for us, and we are the norm.

A great number of parents who are eligible for Free School Meals do not actually apply for it - we have certainly found that out while mailshotting our parents to see if they knew they were entitled.

That's another story.

Can you honestly deny that some parents out there have no concept of raising a child? Prioritising their needs against their child's needs and putting their child first?

If you read I have said many times (eg 18.45)that absolutely these parents exist: my issue is when people then generalise it to all poor people.

Most poor people are neither demon nor angel: they just are. They do the best for their kids and get on with it. Much the same as anyone else, really.

I'm not denying that some parents don't give a shit ...I just hate all this look at me I worked hard and now I'm a millionaire and I came from nothing ,thats spouted on here sometimes ..as if everyone could do it ..peoples circumstances change all the time ..of course lack of money limits some peoples choices to deny that is bloody ridiculous ...but I also think poor parenting is not exclusive to the underclass

usual - sadly I am not a millionaire and I'm so sorry you hate me.

Off now for some champagne and foie gras - enjoy the rest of your conversation.

I don't hate you I hate myself for getting dragged into these threads

Bravo to the usualsuspect, well said as always.

Pointless getting dragged into these threads.

I used to think America was compassionless. Now I see, like father like son. The apple certainly didn't fall far from teh tree in many respects, sadly .

Of course there are lots of people with not much money who are great parents and do their best. But there are also families who do take advantage of the benefit system and live in a dysfunctional way. There are also aspects of the benefit system that don't make sense.

For example, I have met people who are alcoholics and get extra benefits through disability living allowance because of this. The people I have met need help, but giving them extra money is not the way to help.

Sorry havent read the whole thread ,but was tickled about the bit in the OP where she claims the wealthy have got money due to hard work and effort ,so did Cameron have a little part time job to pay his way through Eton? Some people are fortunate to be born into wealthy situations , i imagine that some of the wealthiest in this country are only so because of inherited wealth , Russian oil barons and entrupenuers (sp) being the exception.

Limbo - I am so NOT talking about a £10 pair of trainers.

Scram - yes I do work in the family courts, so I have been privileged to come into contact with people from all walks of life, who I would never have met if I carried on with a comfortable middle class bubble type existence.

I have been amazed by the tenacity and courage of some and utterly appalled by the mendacious twisted selfishness of others.

Of course money makes a difference. But not all abdications from life and responsibility can be laid at the door of inequality. I fear I may be repeating myself but hey, if a thing is worth saying, it's worth saying over and over and over...

quote op: The majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of the time and effort their parents and family put in and the effort they themselves put in acquiring valuable skills and knowledge.

I completely disagree. The majority of the wealthy are born rich, educated well (rich parents with extra money & time & effort to put into education), given a leg up into well paid positions and so maintain their wealth.

Judging by all the people I know in well paid positions and knowing how they got there, it's not what you know it's who you know. They might work hard, but no harder than many other people earning less than the average wage despite having a top degree (me included).

Countless studies have shown the link between poverty, bad behaviour, underachievement and health problems.

You are right, attitudes do need to change, but the attitude that there is no point in trying if you are poor won't change until socety becomes a meritocracy, and 'the poor' have the same chances as 'the wealthy'.

That's not going to happen any time soon with tuition fees rising; low paid council jobs disappearing while the high paid jobs remain; benefits being cut while tax breaks for the rich are introduced... and people like you refusing to acknowledge the FACT that poverty causes problems which can't always be fixed by an upbeat attitude.

'The majority of the wealthy are wealthy because of the time and effort their parents and family put in and the effort they themselves put in acquiring valuable skills and knowledge.'

Spoken like a truly deluded individual who's foolish enough to believe a pack of ill-thought out, stupid lies.

You reap what you sow.

Well said expat.