to think that parents who moan about their kids gettting too much homework..........

[rudolphsmum]

........to think that parents who moan about there kids getting too much homework can't then expect them to do well in exams.

If my son is finding something difficult I sit and explain it to him and if I can't I speak to his teacher. The most recent complaint I heard was that one mum spoke to the head teacher about her daughter finding homework hard but that she wasn't interested because all she is cares about is the school getting good results ....sorry I thought that was what a good head teacher was supposed to be concerned about.

There seems to be a certain group of parents that send there kids to school and expect all learning to go on between 9-3 Mon - Fri and then wonder why their children struggle and before anyone starts on about children being to tired or need to play and relax when they get home, I am not talking about hours of the stuff either - ok rant over ;)

Blue I just read your post before last, thanks I thought i was going mad at one point hard to argue against a point that isnt clear or keeps changing.

I didnt want to go all 'teacherish' but some of the stuff got me riled.

I started to do stuff with my DS before school and my friend who is a primary school teacher said to stop as I didnt know what system the school would use for teaching literacy so I did and just support what they do. The 3R's are so important as without them other areas of the curriculum cannot be accessed.

Generally speaking (generally mind!) children are influneced by parents so much when younger re aspirations work ethics etc regaurdless of whether parents have a clue about the homework or not, later young teens onward they are more likely to be influenced by peers as well as wider family members and role models outside the family home.

Math the point I was making was that whatever teachers give as a sanction can be often undermined by parents or indeed other colleagues.

I rarely give detentions as I found it a poor use of my time, often a second chance rule, then let house staff know then a phonecall home. Much quicker!

Math I used to give info to parents about what we were studying that term, revision session suitable books etc but not individual homeworks no there wouldnt be time to do all that!

Like I said in my last post the parents dont need to have had a great education it is much more about attitude, students can always get help from library or teachers if they are stuck - I never accpeted this as an excuse as they always had time to come and ask me re time set and hand in date, plus if they still attempted it and had shown effort I would give them time to improve after directing them (OMG I am on here in total teacher mode now!!!!) Sorry if TMI

Blue at one point (if you read back) she thought my posts were you and then found me to attack I dont mind disagreeing with people and sometimes just accept you have a different point of view but the variety and inconsistency of some of the points made by right I thought she

what is this blither

of course you are two different people

my argument is extremely consistent

you either don't understand it, or you choose to ignore it

I dont need you to talk to me about professional pride when i come across students in year 9 who cant tell the time reliably or in year 7 still dont know the days of the week let alone barely read.

Well don't you think there might be just something wrong with the primary curriculum?

how is the curriculum dependent on hw?

well, as someone who isn't experiencing state education, I can see why you need it explaining

the children are not listened to reading enough, therefore it falls to the parents

hw tasks such as "learn the 6x table by Friday" are set without any learning of said time table in class,therefore it falls to the parents

spellings are sent home to the parents while teachers fail to correct them, or grammar, in written work, therefore it falls to the parents

maths worksheets are sent home after the briefest of sessions -- with parents ringing round to see how to do it because none of the children have a clue, once again it falls to the parents

projects are set which are impossible to complete without parental help thus setting cohorts of children up for failure, defensiveness, loss of self-esteem, loss of confidence and subsequent loss of interest

these sorts of things -- how much more do you need?

I understand now why your judgement was so mistaken -- you simply didn't know.

I hope you are now enlightened.

I must say, you stumped me as well in terms of where your discussion stood. You aren't exactly clear to be honest.

There needs to be a balance in life and if school related things are taking too much of that, resentment begins and the whole shebang falls to pieces. In our area children are failing within the system and homework is massive because there are not the TA's in classrooms or available, there are no full time librarians and 35+ children to a class.

Thanks for that explanation, pissedoff.

It might actually be constructive if you could leave out the gratuitous bile. Why is explaining yourself such a disgusting thing that you have to insult the audience at the same time? So much for winning people over to your point of view. I pity the children you advocate for - your heart is in the right place, but your attitude stinks.

Ok in simple terms.

Tens of thousands of children are failing in basic skills at eleven.

Two connected factors: a. the curriculum fails to devote enough time to them b. they therefore send the work home to be done by the children with the parents.

Problem : tens of thousands of children have no parental support

Problem : they therefore fall behind and can be disruptive in class and lower the class level of achievement.

Solution : stop relying on parents to instil the basics and do it in the classroom.

How: give them more time
set up the classrooms differently
use teaching assistants differently
free up teachers' and teachers' assistants' time in setting and marking homework

This is a mere skeleton -- an attempt to explain what is apparently so difficult to see but to me, and many others, including teachers, is blindingly obvious.

In short, as I said before: if homework is pointless, drop it. If homework is a necessity to learning, do the work in class.

I do not see how this is difficult to understand, but I did have a jolly good old fashioned education which to my certain knowledge involved no dressing up, no ludicrous projects and no homework.

Love, good point about the attitude of the parents being a factor as well. And the need engage with the teacher to finetune the homework.

In such large classes, it is helpful to feedback to the teacher how the child is experiencing homework to ensure that the child is not overworked or set homework at too high a level, rather than just ignore it, which has the disadvantage of undermining the teacher and the child's respect for school, even if it is done with the best of intentions.

I really don't like being called communist and being patronised -- particularly when I know what I'm talking about and the person I'm talking to really doesn't.

And I also don't like snide personal assumptions being made about my relationship with my children, my children's school, my children's teachers and my commitment to learning when I haven't even brought them here.

pissedoff, the examples you gave of a poor curriculum are just examples of poor teaching.

My dd's school, though independent, actually follows the state curriculum. There are very few of the problems you describe, because of generally properly planned and stimulating lessons and appropriate homework.

Apart from poor teaching, unfeasibly large class sizes is also a problem. If children are not listened to enough, I doubt there is enough time in a school day to give one-to-one attention to 30+ students in any case.

That is why parents, who can and are willing to, can help at home to listen to their child read for even 10 minutes.

I'm going to make an assumption here, which may be wrong, but springs from experience.

I doubt your school follows the full curriculum. It will fulfil requirements, use best bits, and quietly ignore what it sees to be a disbenefit to efficient learning.

Independent privates that I have known of are so efficient they are able to produce well-educated children with a timetable of academic in the morning, and sport in the afternoon, every afternoon, with an art-drama option for a couple of them.

My children, on the other hand, have been to private schools which really do follow the state curriculum closely, and the teachers were good teachers, and the demographic was almost 100pc professional, two parent families with one SAH.

The results should have been through the roof. They were utterly mediocre.

In case you are wondering about the breadth of my experience, I'm not making it up. State school, private, and private following the state curriculum. Earlier I said it was four: it's actually five.

Pissedoff, I don't agree I don't know what I am talking about. I happen to have a different perspective and different view. But you cannot seem to cope with that.

If you experienced crap teaching, I have experience of good teaching. Homework is not the issue, it is teaching.

Love happens to be a teacher and she is quite good at filling in the gaps in my knowledge based on her experience. I am grateful for that.

My dd's school students take the SATS. To that extent they follow the state curriculum. The school has no problem in being the top school in the borough in the league tables.

Large class size are definitely a problem, as is EFL.

However there is no point bemoaning the facts and waiting for them to go away before doing anything about the outcomes.

You can't just throw your apron over your face and shrug.

We already have a generation of failed children. It's one generation too many.

We need a knowledge economy. We cannot compete globally with a massively underskilled workforce. Cheap, badly educated labour is everywhere.

It's not just about failure and personal responsibility or laziness. It's about our prosperity and the breadth of it across all social classes.

An underclass brings down every class. It's a combination of selfishness and altruism. We cannot wait to address these issues until social equality is achieved because it is never going to happen with state education the way it is now.

Pissedoff, I don't agree I don't know what I am talking about.

You didn't though. All you know about is your children and their school and their league table position.

Taking SATS is no indicator that they follow the full curriculum.

I didn't say I had experienced crap teaching. Which is not to say there aren't bad teachers out there.

The hw my children were set was guided by the curriculum. They were set it because the curriculum did not allow time enough in class for what needed to be achieved.

You still aren't getting it.

Poor state schools. My heart bleeds.

Funny though the one down my road is doing quite well with a middle class catchment, as are many good state schools up and down the country following the curriculum.

If you say you know what you are talking about, something is not adding up. You'd better research some more, pissedoff.

Your heart doesn't bleed, you don't care a bean. Your experience is limited to success, and the notion of failure has you sticking your fingers in your ears and saying la la la.

Asking me to do more research is a joke coming from someone with such limited experience. To pretend you know anything about it, when just a few hours ago you had no clue about the level of state school failure, is laughable.

You don't know how the curriculum operates, you cannot conceive of a home life where homework is impossible, you despise children for whom pointless homework destroys their interest in learning.

Thanks, but I won't take advice on research from you.

If I ever cared a bean, pissedoff, I sure as hell would leave the children you purport to speak up for to rot after your charming exchange.

Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Blue it is hopeless! we are all doomed doomed I tell you till they make right minister for education!

Pissedoff as minister for education? She will not get off her fetid soapbox long enough to actually win over any hearts or minds. Oh dear.

right you never answered my question of

why are so angry?

why do you still lash out even when there are bits of your argument people have agreed too - your negativity is so overwhleming its like what kryptonite (sp?) is to superman if you werent so bloody jumpy and snidey when putting your points across you may have added a bit more weight to some of your points.

Are you a troll?

LOL fetid I had to look that up oh how naughty I didnt know that - am sure it will be referenced as a statistic of some sort in some context eek and and [handbag]

Yes, why is pissedoff so pissed off? What pissed her off? Why is talking to her like pissing in the wind?

Nighty night