To think that grammar schools should limit the number of places available to private school kids

[reallytired]

Many grammer schools are over loaded with private school kids. Bright state school kids just can not compete. It is a massive advantage being in a class of 8 with specialist teachers and no SEN kids.

I think that the number of places for privately educated kid should be limited to the percentage of private school kids in the area. Ie. if 10% of kids in a town go to private school then 10% of places should be reserved for private school kids and 90% of places should be for everyone else.

It would then give poor state school families a chance. My son got mostly level 3s at his key stage 1 SATS and is on the top table in his class for every subject, but his school does not think he would get a place at the only grammar in the area. Its crazy. Its no wonder that social mobility is at an all time low.

However it is more likely to occur with a privately state-primary educated dc who has had a lot of tutoring for a specific exam than a dc who has been at a bog standard school an independent/private school and is just naturally bright enough.

It can go both ways. So can people please stop trying to pigeonhole those who decide to privately educate their kids?

The assumption that privately schooled children are coached to perform beyond their brain power (for want of a better way of putting it) has never been backed by good research.

I think the premise of this thread is flawed.

And the intention - excluding some children from certain public services - unfortunate.

It would be pointless to ban privately educated children. Parents who send their children to state primaries and pay for extra tuition also cause the system to be unfair. I agree with you the system is unfair and bright working class children are being pushed out. I think poorer kids should get a value added score on their 11+.

Just to add. I do think no child should be banned from public services.

At my dc prep school approximately 3-5 children out of a year group of 40 go to the grammar school.

A number of reasons for this:

1. The school don't push it, they want children to stay until end of yr8 not leave end of yr6.

2. The school are prepping (hence the name prep school) for the common entrance to go on to public schools.

3. It is non-selective, just because the parents or family have money, doesn't mean that their child has high-intelligence.

Despite this my eldest has gone to grammar school - mainly because the fees jump from £15k a year to £30k a year for the local public schools, and it's one thing finding £30k for 2 children - completely different to finding £60k for 2 children.

"The assumption that privately schooled children are coached to perform beyond their brain power (for want of a better way of putting it) has never been backed by good research"

On average state school educated children get better degrees at uni than private school children. So that is evidence that state school educated people with the same A-level results are brighter.

State grammars are far more competitive to get into than most private selective schools. Yet schools like Habs, NLCS get far better results than any state grammar. The top schools in the league tables are all private.

I think its reasonable to assume that private education gives massive educational advantages otherwise people would not pay for it.

I have an issue with the expectations of teachers at some state primaries - I'm certainly not suggesting giving children or parents an unrealistic idea of their abilities, but the drive and "can do" mentality is definitely missing from one of the primaries round here.

Not all parents choose private school for educational advantage.

I and a number of others that I know chose private schools for the value added that they offer, the opportunities of extra-curricular, the training that they offer in manners, elocution, confidence etc.

Having sent my eldest to state grammar school I see the difference in the value added, and regret sending her to state, and wish I had the finances to send her to private, but am saving to put her back into private for 6th form. And that has nothing to do with academic grades. My child also notices the difference for herself.

I will be doing everything I can to keep my youngest in private throughout.

Yabu.

I agree with the Martorialist.

Am interested as to what you'd do with regards to wealthy families who buy very expensive houses in good catchment areas and pay for private tuition for their children to pass the 11+.

So because they chose not to privately educate for whatever reasons they're still ok to get the grammar school places?

Kids with SENs are very capable of being bright. Ds1 got level 3s on all his SATs too.

Maybe the whol;e thing could be resolved with a not-tutorable non-language specific IQ test>?

Most of the friends of my DCs (at state grammar) live in big fuck-off houses, spend £10k+ on their annual ski ing holidays, own ponies in some cases - exactly the lifestyle we couldn't afford when we had three in private primary school.

Really tired: I meant at point of entry to the grammar - not the outcomes at A-level and subsequent university performance.

[And I am not sure of the quality of the data that supports your point - being aware of only one (pretty narrow time frame) - can you link more?].

Coldtitz: that's what the VR and nonVR tests are meant to be. I had always understood that there was some advantage in a child practising the papers to become familiar with their form, but once familiarity was achieved, the child would plateau and further flogging through would be nugatory.

Other posters have however suggested other examinations, or coachable versions of Reasoning papers. Perhaps energy should be directed to the examination authority to move away from those types?

YABVU; how totally unfair to suggest preventing able children, who happen to be privately educated, from getting a place at a grammar school at the expense of less able children who have been educated elsewhere.

It should be entirely on merit.

If the state schools are failing to get their best children into the best grammars, then they need to do something about it. Penalising one group of bright children is not the way to go about it.

IWantAnotherBaby - of course it should be entirely on merit. In my area private schools coach for the 11+ for at least 2 years in advance (and advertise themselves on this basis). State schools are not allowed to practice for the 11+. How is that a fair competition? Almost all the kids at the local private school pass the 11+; in the state schools it can be as low as 4 or 5 out of 60.

YABVU.

DD is in Y7 at local comp. She is a bright girl and at parents evening when in Y5, the head of the state primary told us 'not to bother' with the local grammar as the school wont have covered some of the things tested in 11+'.

My friends DS aged 8 is in Y3 at prep school. He has more than 5 specialist teachers in subjects like:

Maths
English
Science (complete with a lab and white coats)
History
Geography
Design & Technology
ICT (with a lab equipped with Macs & Ipads)

At the prep school, from Y3, the kids are treated as 'secondary school' children. The walk to their own lessons and are taught time management and ways of independent study.

My DD is only being exposed to this now!

The state schools should improve and encourage their bright students!

If a grammar school takes the top 10% and your child is on track to be in the top 25% why should he get into the grammar school?

Does the test cover all those topics Redvelvetsofa? The entry for private schools at 11 tends to focus on english and maths.

no of course the 11+ doesnt cover all these!

Then it's not about resources. It's about stretching the brighter children in basic subjects.

The local state primary in my area is well known for the children of parents who can afford it, tutoring their children from the age of 7 to pass the exam for the local Grammar School.

I don't know how you deal with that. Sad for the kids though, because they are crammed like mad for years doing practice papers, then when they get into the school, many of them have difficulty coping.

It must vary from area to area then. Where we live the Primary schools are seriously hot on trying to get as many pupils into the Grammar schools as possible. They all coach for the 11+ afaik and the vast majority of kids are not from a private background.

Grammar schools only take a small top percentage of pupils. You can't predict how a child with potential will mature. My sister was incredibly intelligent at 11, passed with flying colours and went to the local Grammar. She managed fine for a couple of years but couldn't keep up in the end and left.

I passed more GCSEs than she did and I went to a very second rate private school. My parents poured money into coaching her when she was at the Grammar and didn't think there was any point in spending money on me because I was 'thick'.

Difference was I worked hard and she didn't. Her brain matured quicker than mine but that just gave a false illusion of her level of intelligence.

It's also about preparing children exam technique. Reading questions carefully so that you're sure you understand what they're asking, learning to keep an eye on the clock and pace yourself, leaving questions to come back to if they're taking too long etc

If you feel your child is capable get old papers and work through them with him.

The private schools aren't given answer sheets. They're teaching their children how to answer to the best of their individual ability.

From 7

If they've been taught the maths and english that is covered by the exam and are used to exams- don't get bogged down by an early question and leave half the paper- then that should be enough.

Troisgarcon:
"The SEN provision is Grammar schools is far higher, purely because you have a predominantly 'middle class' parent who can afford to pay for consultation after consultation with private Ed Psycs and get their children all the Access Arrangements going for exams! The same also applies to independent and private schools."

Am astonished that noone has commented on this, although to be fair it's not a thread about special needs.

When I worked (for a LA) in a grammar school area I visited a GS to discuss provision for their pupils with SEN - they were politely amazed that I thought that they might have any such pupils....