To think that grammar schools should limit the number of places available to private school kids

[reallytired]

Many grammer schools are over loaded with private school kids. Bright state school kids just can not compete. It is a massive advantage being in a class of 8 with specialist teachers and no SEN kids.

I think that the number of places for privately educated kid should be limited to the percentage of private school kids in the area. Ie. if 10% of kids in a town go to private school then 10% of places should be reserved for private school kids and 90% of places should be for everyone else.

It would then give poor state school families a chance. My son got mostly level 3s at his key stage 1 SATS and is on the top table in his class for every subject, but his school does not think he would get a place at the only grammar in the area. Its crazy. Its no wonder that social mobility is at an all time low.

I have only read page 1 of this thread, because I can see where it's going to end up already (!) - but in response to a point made on page 1 about people who send their kids to private primaries being able to afford private secondary school too - this is NOT the case! Where we live, private primary school places cost HALF the amount of a private secondary school place.

We can afford private primary for our DCs, but not private secondary. If our DCs pass the grammar exam, why should they not go? Should they be penalised for having parents who worked damned hard to put them through a private primary school, whilst paying taxes to subsidise the local state schools at the same time, and not clogging up a place at a good local state school which another family needed but didn't get because we had taken it?

Finally - I don't send my kids to a private primary in order to guarantee them a place at grammar school. I send them there because it is a caring, nurturing environment and it is the school which I think most closely matches my DCs' needs. They are going to spend 7 years of their lives there and I want them to be happy. THAT is what the many thousands of pounds each year are paying for - happiness, but NOT a grammar school place.

Going to a private primary does not guarantee a grammar place. We will be far too broke by year 6 to afford a private tutor to do all the pre-grammar cramming. On the other hand, all the middle-class, high-earning parents who clog up the state primaries will have plenty of cash to spend on tutoring. THEY are the ones who, year in, year out, force their kids into the grammar schools round here.

And no - not all private schools tutor their pupils to pass the grammar exam. Ours certainly doesn't. Academically (i.e. SATS scores & 11+ scores) it's no better than many of the state schools round here. But it is better in other ways. In my opinion.

Gah. I am so sick of the anti-private school prejudice that I face whenever I talk to another parent. FFS, I am paying twice! My kids are not hogging a place at the excellent, over-subscribed state primary! My family are not "rich" - we give up A LOT in order to send our kids to private school. You should be thanking me!

My son will probably start in a private primary. There are two main reasons for this:

1. Wrap around care. No wrap around care at the state primary, full wrap around care at the private primary. It is genuinely a case of - if I want to work, it has to be private. [I've been looking for part-time work for over a year, along with every other mum in the county, so that's not an option].

2. Because the private primary will give him a better chance of getting into a private secondary. The comprehensives around here are all bad. There are no grammar schools.
   [Yes, I'm sure they're bad. I'm judging them from a position of knowledge, not ignorance.]

Of course we have other options. I could not work until the kids are old enough to look after themselves. We could move to another area of the country.

We are considering all three options. But at the moment, it's looking like private primary.

It is unfair though. At the local private primary they spend Y6 coaching the students to pass the GS entrance exams. It instantly places state school pupils at a disadvantage unless their parents can fork out the 30 quid an hour that is charged round here for tuition.

The GS system in birmingham is broadly private education by stealth. I work in an inner city primary, I'm sure that there are several Y6's who would cope very well in the grammar schools here but they do not stand a cat in hells chance because (a) of the private primaries teaching to test and (b) their parents can't/are unable to access support from tutors etc...

Private school pupils shouldn't be excluded from state grammars but I strongly feel that there should be some sort of weighting/allowance for pupils from state primaries.

Of course it would be wonderful if we didn't have schools that select on the basis of wealth or academic ability and then perhaps all children would be able to access the same high standard and quality of education

Really and truly if they are bright enough they can get in. Get practice papers from Smiths and go on the 11plus .co forum - it was set up to help non-private and untutored kids get help with the exam. The point is you have to doa lot of practice and you have to put the time in, but if you do, you have just as much chance.

www.11plus.co.uk/

I'm with GiddyPickle. Perhaps we live in the same area?! Where I live, the private primaries do not coach the children to pass the grammar exam (well, one does, but there are 5 other private primaries who don't, not to mention the traditional, more expensive prep schools whose pupils pretty much all go on to the very expensive private secondary schools).

It must vary from area to area. But here, the grammar exam apparently covers topics that haven't yet been covered in Y5, and the exam takes place in the November of Y6. So of course parents are going to pay for tutoring. Having attended a selective school myself, I am well aware that passing the exam is not a guarantee that the child will thrive at the school. Selective schools are very high-pressure. My DH teaches in one. My DCs will not be going there. They won't be sitting the exam, as I do not want them to be sujected to the same pressure that I was in my teens. However, what the alternative is, I don't know - the education system is really awful and needs to be dismantled and rebuilt from scratch really. Hopefully a miracle will happen in the next few years and, if not, we will sell up and move to an area where the (non-selective) state schools are better - or emigrate.

Oh, and to reiterate - the "problem" is caused by parents who pay for private tutoring. They are the ones who skew the results of the 11+, not the parents who pay for their children to attend private schools.

Why does the 11+ tests include topics that the state primaries haven' covered?

Prehaps a better idea would be to reserve so many grammar school places for families with an income of less than 20K. Or maybe have so many places available for families with an income over 100K. Prehaps banding places on the basis of family income would stop grammars becoming state funded private schools.

There is a terrible waste of potential in this country. We need to ensure that bright children from poor areas get a first class education. All of us as country lose out when these children do not get the opportunities they deserve.

I think there is a certain degree of self interest on this thread. Maybe I am partly guilty. My son will be fine as he will go to a church of England secondary. (Faith schools are another thread)

Prehaps faith schools should have to prove that they are taking their fair share of poor kids as well.

redvelvetsofa No idea why the 11+ includes topics that haven't been covered, but the private primaries haven't covered these topics either - that was my point! So attending a private primary makes no difference.

reallytired I actually believe that families who earn over £100k should not be allowed to send their children to state schools, but I will probably be flamed for saying so!

They can pass the exam Hully, but that doesn't always mean they will get a place. There are just too many applicants for too few places. Our only GS admits that on its paperwork.

reallytired

You do seem to have something against private schools and I think your assumptions are blinkering you.

Are you really saying that private students pass the 11+ exam because of the education they receive? Is it not possible to be 'rich and bright'?

It will be very unreasonable to discriminate anyone based on their income and such a thing will never happen.

There are many state school parents who can afford private schools but chose not to because they dont have to!

The problem is not private schools. It is with the state primaries that refuse to recognise and encourage and support their own. This is why, so many parents pay for private tuition to cover topics that the children will be tested in the 11+.

I am a state parent child and refuse to have such a blinkered view. Fight to improve state schools.

For what its worth, visit a few private schools, let your child have a tester day and then make up your mind then.

There are good and bad private and state schools all over the country

Matts

Should parents who earn £100k be refrained from paying a portion of the education taxes then? This is silly.

Do people realise that state educated people become successful too and go on to earn £100k? So they shold abandon the system that helped them get there?

OP - YABVU, I have not read whole thread, but need to make some points:

Both DS's are down for our local prep school. Would you like to know why? Because in our Borough, 1 in 4 kids is not getting a place in any of the local schools. They are instead being shipped out to overflow schools in neighbouring areas and you dont even know which one of those you will get a place in until April/ May.

So bottom line, my kids doesnt get a place at his local primary due to over subscription issues, and we decide (and this decision is by no means taken lightly on a financial perspective), we then go the prep school route and we are then penalised as a result of that? Are you for real?

I think I am off to start a thread about a thread...might even title it 'To think that private school pupils should get all the places at Grammar schools given that their parents have privately educated their kids for the previous 8 years and it is our turn to get our moneys worth from the state'

All these private school bashing threads, do you realise that if all the private school pupils were released onto the state sector, it would actually not be able to cope in anyway?

And, if you don't have either than you'd have probably done far better being in the top sets of a good comprehensive instead.

Completely disagree, the local comprehensives send 1% to university, they have never yet had a Oxford/Cambridge success story, 30% of the children pass 5 GCSE's or more likely the equivalent.

If your child was anything above brain dead you'd not choose to send them there and yet statistically there must be many children who only miss the 11+ by a few marks, so what happens to them at the comps that they don't come out with fantastic results even if they are B's rather than A's ?
Actually I know the answer, they fail due to their environment or else they go to private school and do as well if not better than the grammer schools.

Oh and my DH went to GS and was coached by his 2 teacher parents so this is not a new idea that seeing the papers and having a good few months practice is advantageous, DH left school 24 years ago.

True should be allocated proportionally perhaps with more of a nod to previous ability raather than just what is a heavily coached for exam

The real problem is simply that there aren'r enough GS places. If there were, state school parents and private parents wouldn't feel the need for tutoring, because it would be a simple case of the child being bright enough, and therefore being offered a place. It wouldn't matter if they were state educated or privately educated.

The only reason the privately educated children applying for GS annoys me is because they have ofetn had access to better to tuition, and are at an unfair advantage because of that.

In theory every child, no matter what their parents income level is, should have equal access to GS, but when there are so few places, they simply don't.

In our area children who are bright enough to cope well with GS aren't working to pass the exam, they are working to be the top 100 out of 1000+ children. That means every single mark matters, and children have to be looking at getting 98% to get a place. That means that highly capable children will be missing out on the type of education that would suit them best because they weren't coached enough on exam techniques, or because they had an off day.

I think GS should look at things other than a score on exams as well, but that is probably because I am looking at it from a personal perspective. I want my bright child to go to GS because of the learing environment it offers, not just the education. We are lucky that if he doesn't get a place at GS the comp he will go to is a good one, but I just know that the environment will not suit him as well as the GS.

how do you measure previous ability when the curriculum of state and private is different?

Sorry for the typos

Crazy idea, Matts.

My husband is one of the brightest people I know. He went to a local comp. Then he went to Cambridge. Unsurprisingly, he is a good earner and you are saying that because of this, despite the 50% tax he pays on some of his income, he should not be able to send our children to the local state primary or local comp?

Madness.