To think that grammar schools should limit the number of places available to private school kids

[reallytired]

Many grammer schools are over loaded with private school kids. Bright state school kids just can not compete. It is a massive advantage being in a class of 8 with specialist teachers and no SEN kids.

I think that the number of places for privately educated kid should be limited to the percentage of private school kids in the area. Ie. if 10% of kids in a town go to private school then 10% of places should be reserved for private school kids and 90% of places should be for everyone else.

It would then give poor state school families a chance. My son got mostly level 3s at his key stage 1 SATS and is on the top table in his class for every subject, but his school does not think he would get a place at the only grammar in the area. Its crazy. Its no wonder that social mobility is at an all time low.

And things have changed re. Uniforms etc. Polyester is the order of the day, one school PE kit plus rugby/hockey kit, black shoes and bag of choice.
Trips are few and far between.

Well curlymama, that would be a failing on the schools part then, I know that children are asked to leave our local schools if they don't pass the first year exams to the required standard and that is absolutely the right thing to do.
It's always the case that some slip through the net, my neighbour has been doing her sons homework for the past three years and will no doubt take as much of his GCSE's as she can too.
That's more of a cheat than tutoring to get your child into a GS and then hoping the school drag them through by the bootstraps.

Yeah we did a lot of mine via second hand - until they changed the uniform in year 9 lol

I've just totted up the basic uniform for my old school (2 x skirts, 1 x blazer, 4 x blouses, 1 x jumper) and it's come in over £200 without shoes, coat, lab coat, pe kit etc URGH! Nope. DD is NOT going there! lol and you can't get the shirts elsewhere it would seem they have made them a colour that just isn't natural lol

Bullshit newwave, you dip in and out as required, it works both ways is the door barred to those parents who couldn't save enough to pay for private primary, should they not be allowed in because they haven't supported the school from day one but suddenly find the funds when the results of the 11+ drop on their doormat and aren't what they hoped for ?

Private schools are for elitists who think their children are to precious to go to the local state school but think the state grammar school may just be good enough for little Rupert.

That said I recognise that if your child has special needs that the state cant or wont provide for then you may have no choice but to go private.

Both my sons went to the local comp, both got 3 x A at A level and both went to/are at good universities.

mental note - ignore the shite comments

Well good for you Newwave, my daughter aged 8 announced she was going to kill herself after the little bitches at her primary school sent her to coventry for a year, should I have left her to see what happened ?
When she was so stressed she cut her hair off the headmistress finally took notice and her solution was to keep her in at playtimes, alongside the naughty children.
For us private school was a life line, not something we'd financially planned for or could afford but thank fuck it was there for our DD because I dread to think what we'd be dealing with now if she hadn't moved.

Who knows if 10% of the kids in a town are privately educated? Does anyone care enough to keep a record?
Anyway, the grammar schools in UK only cater for a very small minority of the school population. At least you've GOT a grammar school to aim for. Think how lucky you are. If you lived in my area you'd be looking at NO GRAMMAR and very poor comprehensives.
Get stuck in and get your child moving on towards that grammar school place. You need to think positive and stop being negative. Not being unkind but am on the side of your child. Give them the best you can manage IMO!

mamatomany, the Mum you mentioned is obviously not doing her child any favours, and I don't really disagree with tutoring. I did as much as we could manage with my ds, and if I could have paid for a tutor I would have done. Parents feel they have to because of the competition involved when such a high number of children are taking the test and there are nowhere near enough places.

In my mind, that's why it's unfair that bright children may miss out on a place because a slightly less bright child had better quality tutoring.

That's effectively buying your child a place, and I just think that's wrong. But as I said, if I could I would, because we all want what's best for our own child.

Jumping, of course they might, but unless they have been heavily tutored outside of school, I think it's less likely.

the Mum you mentioned is obviously not doing her child any favours

Well i guess that depends if he ends up with GCSE's in the subjects allowing 100% coursework, if he does then she's done him a massive favor.

Absolutely mamatomany. My nephew is at a tiny private school after years of bullying at state primary - my six also is relieved the opportunity is there.

sorry got distracted by the dc watching Waterhorse.
Not sure if it has changed MrsRH
In the Kent test you have to achieve min 117 on 3 papers VR, NVR and Maths with maximum score 420. You can't pull up your score on weaker subjects.
Obviously the school does no preparation but in our case did a CAT test in yr 5 to give an indicator of ability and to decide if the school would support any appeals.

Regarding private school children who get in to grammar and "flounder".

It is interesting that this is always assumed to be because they are not academically up to it and were hothoused into the school and not on their own academic merits.

Its highly likely that a percentage of these kids who are "floundering" are not applying themselves and not working anywhere near their full potential - are not, essentially, self-motivated. Nothing to do with academia.

Nobody ever really considers that (it seems anyway) because its more satisfying to assume they are thick as pig shit and only in the grammar because they came from a private primary.

There are countless reasons why incredibly bright students fall behind and fail to apply themselves.

Oh Crap... look it can't be that hard,. Ds1 is bright but he's not a bloody genius. He had 6 1 hour tutor sessions on maths as we sit in Sept, beginning yr 6, and then some practice papers.
It can't possibly take an entire year of private education, unless you are dealing with a child who is significantly below average.. I just don't believe it.

And I bet you a whole load, that private kids who are supposedly "floundering" in grammar schools are only doing so, because they have been pushed so hard they can't be arsed come secondary and so are working significantly below their potential.

Maybe, but is she going to be there to sit his A levels and do his dissertation as well? At some point it will become evident that he has not been succeding on his own merit. As you said, children can be asked to leave a school if they can't keep up with the work, which while being the right thing for the child, must also be quite unsettling at the time.

None of this would bother me if there were enough GS places for all the children that were clever enough to attend. But there aren't. The one we applied too states on a letter that not every child deemed suitable for a place can be offered one, because they just don't have the space. I find that really sad.

When competion is so high, like 1000 children going for 100 places, children don't just need to pass the test comfortably, they need to get every single mark, literally. That is hard to do for a child that has only had an unexperienced parent going through NVR/VR test papers with them when they have never seen one before.

I can't see him taking A Levels Curlymama, he isn't up to them if his mum needs to do his work because he can't be arsed, poor little rich kid but as you say he's taking up space a child who is keen to learn could have.
Came from a state primary though.

"because they have been pushed so hard they can't be arsed come secondary and so are working significantly below their potential"

Or, having problems at home. Divorcing/fighting parents. Eating disorder. Mental health problems. Tired all the time because they aren't getting enough sleep. Would rather be playing football or playstation. Or any other number of things that can make any normal teenager not apply themselves academically.

No, its much more satisfying to assume they have been pushed hard because they went private.

These little anti-private assumptions just keep coming up again and again in these threads.

If you have pushy parents, you have pushy parents. You might have pushy parents who can't afford to send you to a private school but who push you and push you and push you and make you study for your 11 plus on the weekend. Or you might have parents who can and do afford to send you to private who do the same. Or not.

Would you get pissed off if I assumed parents of children at state schools doing the 11 plus push harder and apply more pressure than those at private, because they are less likely to be able to afford an alternative if it goes wrong? Probably - and I would be wrong to do so.

Frankly, if a parent struggles with 11+ practise papers because 'they haven't seen them before,' it's unlikely their child would be bright enough to pass the exam anyway .

YABU, the children get in on merit.

Spend your energy questioning the standard of education at your local state school instead!

"Or, having problems at home. Divorcing/fighting parents. Eating disorder. Mental health problems. Tired all the time because they aren't getting enough sleep. Would rather be playing football or playstation. Or any other number of things that can make any normal teenager not apply themselves academically."

yes, it could be anyone of those things Tatty,
and, no and it's not particularly satisfying to assume so.
However it is more likely to occur with a privately educated dc who has had a lot of tutoring for a specific exam than a dc who has been at a bog standard school and is just naturally bright enough.
and if you haven't invested a fortune you are not expecting a "return" so in many cases the state secondary is as good as the state primary they have already attended.
You can assume what you like in my case though and no I wouldn't be pissed off. I won't be choosing private in any circumstance, especially not with Ds2 who has SN and certainly won't be sitting the 11+.
Of course, it could just be that us state parents are more realistic about our children's abilities in general and have less desire to "keep up with the Joneses"

What'sWrongwithyou! Harsh. But would quite possibly be true in our case if my ds didn't have AS, which also seemed to bless him with one of those freaky maths brains.

He's been better at Maths than me since he was in yr3. Seriously. I swear I have that dyscalculia thing. Before we got a diagnosis, I used to wonder if he had been switched at birth

Disclaimer: have had 2 glasses of wine.

There are state schools who routinely send 50% of their year 6 pupils to grammar schools and there are also state schools who haven't had a pupil pass the 11 plus in years. Some pupils from affluent homes have a tutor twice a week for a couple of years and others might just have a quick look at a couple of past papers. It is not a level playing field and many parents with children at state schools make sure their children are just as well prepared for the test as their privately educated peers. The challenge is for schools to identify and nurture those children whose parents might not realise that grammar school is a good option for their child.

But that's not going to happen, Sue - certainly not in my county, where primary schools are not allowed to get involved in the grammar system.

And, as I said, they're so out of touch that unwary parents have asked an opinion and been told not to bother, and the DCs have gone on to get top marks.

I'm afraid it really is up to parents to sort this - which obviously puts at a disadvantage those with cba parents (nothing to do with privately-educated or not).

"Of course, it could just be that us state parents are more realistic about our children's abilities in general and have less desire to "keep up with the Joneses"

Yet another assumption!

And in case you wondered, I will be sending my children to the local state primary, so I have no axe to grind.

But I think there are some dreadfully blinkered ideas about private school children, their parents, and what is going on in their lives.