to be really shocked that someone who I always see as highly intelligent etc

[icarriedawatermelon2]

can so so so so ignorant when it comes to car seats and safety?

At work today. Chatting over lunch about keeping my youngest son rear facing. Much respected work mate, who is so bright and intelligent literally mocks me for being OTT and revealing that he drives with his 7 year old on sofa cushion if he forgets her booster seat (no high back, just basic booster) and wouldn't in a million years keep a toddler rear facing as they are too demanding and need to see where they are going!

Then the whole room joins in with "Oh in my day we didn't have seats etc etc"

"x£ on a car seat you must be mad etc"

Left work feeling a bit crap to be honest :(

Sorry, you're

pippibluestocking, high back seats won't make much of a difference to abdominal injuries, no.
However if your car was involved in a side impact incident, would you want your 8yr olds head to smash into the side window of the car or a polystyrene and fabric padded head support?

Good little article in Saturday telegraph motoring section at weekend on car seats and the research Volvo did - impact on child/ baby crash test dummy even at really low speeds was significant. On my phone so can't do a link but it may be on their website. Maybe you should show it to him?
Yanbu!

People are astonishingly pious and pompous about safety issues.

There is no way to keep a child entirely safe unless you prevent them having any kind of risky interaction with the world.

Everyone has their own views about what constitutes keeping a child safe. I am pretty anal about car seats but never had a stair gate which is a borderline stoning offence with some on here.

Deciding that someone else is inferior to you because they care less about things you regards as vital or have formed different opinions is pretty sanctimonious.

We are really determined to decide if other people are good (like us) or bad (pretty much anyone who disagrees)

Is it being sanctimonious to give info on why old car seats are dangerous, then have that info scoffed at and argue back?
I've been to Britax and done their training and seen the crash tests. It is horrific! I might get a little overzealous, but can't bear the thought of any children being injured or worse because parents didn't have all the facts in front of them. I get mad I'm afraid when those safety facts are ridiculed.

Well said Pag.

five plastic is made in varying qualities. I would like to think the very expensive car seats I bought are made from better quality plastic than clothes pegs. If you want to buy into the car seat manufacturers advice then that's fine. Given that plastic takes millenia to degrade it's hardly surprising that others may be more sceptical and question the motivation behind it.

Im glad to see this, its a good reminder for people to check their car seats fit their child appropriately.

I see too many babies/young children with the straps too loose, the parents say its because their babies dont like them too tight. Their response should be "tough". When the babies fly out the seats in an accident, a loose strap isnt going to hold them in.

I see too many children who pull the straps off their shoulders - because they dont like it - again, this wont help in a crash.

I see too many shoulder straps crossing the face/neck which means a child will be severely injured in a crash.

I see even more children not in car seats at all. And parents dont seem to care.

In most of these scenarios I bet the parents sue the other driver if/when their child/ren are killed/injured in a crash.

People complain about the price of a car seat, but how much do you pay for your mobile phones?

I was giving an example, not saying that car seat plastic is as cheap and nasty as clothes pegs, after all mine only last about 2 years before they've all fallen apart.
However stress tests have proven that even the stronger types of plastic can degrade enough to become a safety risk after about 5 years.
It's not a matter of 'buying into' manufacturer's advice, it's about keeping children safe. I wouldn't have thought a price can be put on that.
Not saying everyone has to go out and buy fancy expensive seats, there are some reasonably priced ones that do a great job, but make sure you're getting one that you know to be new, safe and not damaged in a previous impact.
Of course plastic takes ages to fully degrade but it can seriously weaken over time. Polymer links are actually quite fragile, it only takes a small hairline weakness to become something much bigger with a small impact.

How can it possibly be true that a car seat starts to degrade after four years? Wouldn't it take like 1000 years to start to degrade in landfill?!
I am quite sceptical about that (and have just put my littlest son in his big brother's car seat that is coming up for four years old so also slightly worried. And also completely utterly skint so unable to afford hundreds of pounds on a new one. Ace. That's made my day.)

five

I haven't scoffed or argued at any of your info on here.

why are you assuming that my general comments about the tone of the op are about you?

Don't worry too much Mrskbpw, yours will more than likely be ok as long as you've had no bumps. I just want people to be aware of the facts.
Plastics can start to degrade after about 5 years due to extremes of temperatures etc. Most manufacturers will recommend changing after a certain amount of time, or after any accident, no matter how minor.
I'm not sure how uptodate this list still is, but it's a good indicator.
Babysafe (UK) Capsule 6 years
Babysafe (UK) Car seats & boosters 10 years
Babywell (UK) 6 years
Brio (UK) 10 years
Britax (UK) 10 years
Edinburgh (UK) 10 years
Fairlands (UK) 10 years
Mamma's and Pappa's (UK) 5 years
Maxi Cosi (UK) 5 years
Nania/Tex (US/UK) 7 years
Phil & Teds (UK) 6 years
Recaro (UK) 10 years

I really didn't know about rear-facing toddler seats when mine moved up from their rear-facing baby seats. I did loads of research but presumably the OP would classify me as ignorant. I really can't see my giants fitting into them though, especially in my little car, and they did seem incredibly safe and snug in their forward facing top-of-the-range seats.

Now they are four they are in forward facing booster seats with backs. They are big enough to be in boosters without backs and if buying anymore, e.g. for grandparents' cars, that was going to be what I chose.

I'm following all the recommendations and even exceeding them in being more cautious - is that bad?

Pag, was just wondering, sorry, tone of voice doesn't convey well here. I know I lost it a bit with someone on this thread earlier, but I believe they were taking the p*#s.

put your head between your knees and take slow breaths.........

People should just do their best, follow best advice as best they can ( lots of bests there).

YABU to imply that 7 year olds should be in a high back booster. My dd1 grew out of her Britax highback booster when she was six. The headrest was adjustable, but even at its highest setting she was very uncomfortable and unable to get her head and shoulders into the correct place.

I don't know any 7 year olds who still use a high back booster.

DD always goes in a car set, apart from when I was caught out in Thailand when she was 5 months old. No car seat and impossible to buy one or rent one anywhere. Best I could do was strap myself into the back seat & carry DD in front pack (seatbelt between us) & hope for the best. (Where we were staying cars were pretty much unavoidable).

I got pretty stressed about the whole thing, but had to keep telling myself I have personally never been in a car seat ever, neither did my brother & sister. Didn't even have seatbelts in the back until I was a teenager.

Ok, let's have a look at some stats here.

The number of children killed or seriously injured in a road traffic accident in Great Britain in 2009 was 2,671, of which 1,660 were pedestrians.

"?Reported Child casualties fell by 6 per cent. The number of children killed or seriously injured in 2009 was 2,671 (down 5 per cent on 2008). Of those, 1,660 were pedestrians, 7 per cent down on 2008. 81 children died on the roads, 43 less than in the previous year, a reduction of over a third."

That means that only about 1,000 children were injured in cars out of maybe 10mio (my guesstimate). So, the odds of being injured would be about 1 in 10,000 (less than the chance of a woman dying in childbirth, for instance). As for dying, it is less than one in 100,000. Then I can ask the question: in how many of these injuries/fatalities would a rear/front facing child seat make a significant difference. If we assume 1/3 (I doubt it is that high), we are talking taking a 1/30,000 risk of any significant increase in injury or a 1 in 300,000 chance of an increase in mortality.

The numbers above are really tiny. Unless you are of the school that believes safety is paramount and wraps your child in cotton wool all the time, then you have to balance safety versus comfort and quality of life. For me, after about 1 year old, being able to face forwards and interact with one's environment and other members of the car trumps the miniscule extra risk taken.

So, in conclusion, YABU!

Nowhere near as bad as a woman at school who walked in on Friday with a baby in what I call a newborn 'basket' seat who was not strapped in.

'Sorry to interfere, but your baby is not strapped in'

'Oh I know, I'm a bit lazy like that'

Cue this morn, same woman appears, hands her children over to childminder from her car, childminder says

'You really should do this belt up - at least in the car'

Same response from mother. :(

I'm afraid the police need to have a word with that woman pronto!

OP, you seem very concerned about this issue - and maybe it is for that reason that your colleagues are taking the mickey out of you?

The easier you are to wind up, the more people will try to do it, ime.

They are probably a lot more responsible than they are revealing to you, but are just entering into a 'debate' to relieve their boredom.

Don't give them the satisfaction!

My ds1 is 7, and in a high backed booster Wouldn't use anything else in my car - there are no head restraints. Ds2 is 15 months, and forward facing in the safest seat that actually fits my car.

None of those new fangled air bags or safety curtain bollocks though. Fortunately when I learnt to drive I wasn't taught to rely on secondary safety measures such as those, but on primary safety, i.e. avoiding bloody accidents in the first place!

'68 Morris Traveller btw. Before the rear-facing police decide to tell me that they can go in every vehicle. Tosh.

My ds is also 7 and is in a high back booster. Seems to fit him fine still. And he's quite tall for his age. (Is in age 8 or 9 tops depending on make.)

He stays in that booster as long as possible IMO - I'd rather his head and neck were protected in a crash than not. (God forbid and all that.)

"None of those new fangled air bags or safety curtain bollocks though. Fortunately when I learnt to drive I wasn't taught to rely on secondary safety measures such as those, but on primary safety, i.e. avoiding bloody accidents in the first place!"

Wow, how arrogant cockadoodledoo. Lets hope that doesn't come back to bite you.
I was in a very scary accident a couple of months ago, my husband was driving. A drunk driver hit us head on, he was driving on the wrong side of the road, and we didn't see him until he came round a sharp bend at 40mph. Shame we're not all as clever as you.

I'm not an arrogant driver. I'm merely pointing out how I was taught. Kids these days are taught to pass their test, they're not taught to drive.

I know a number of people who seem to think that airbags and such like make them invincible on the roads. I believe they are the arrogant ones.

I never drive without thinking of everything as a potential hazard. I haven't had an accident in over 10 years, and then it was pure carelessness and at less than 5mph. And I've made sure never to repeat it. I'm not saying that to prove how 'clever' I am.

Of course there's a chance of being in an accident like you describe Dansmommy, which sounds horrific (and I hope you weren't seriously hurt?), I'm not stupid enough to think there's not.

DH worked in serious head injuries unit. Children and adults. I could never happily travel with a young child unstrapped in a car. We always had child seats in our cars, followed by booster cushions in an era when many cars didn't even have seat belts fitted. In those days, child seats couldn't be moved from car to car, as bolted in to place.

I kind of imagined those in the emergency services would take their family's safety very seriously. Imagine my horror when I found fireman friend carried his boys strapped into car seat by their harnesses but the seat itself not strapped down or bolted in, in any way. Seat would fall over when he was taking a sharp corner. what price safety?