To think that our expectations of babies behaviour in this country are too high?

[Tryharder]

There seems to have been a lot of threads around at the moment along the lines of "my baby is 5 weeks old and still won't sleep through the night" and "my baby won't go 4 hours between feeds, is she just greedy" or "my baby wants to be picked up a lot - is she just manipulative?" You get the picture....

Have just read a post about someone who left a very young baby to cry it out (don't ask me to link) and they are all smug about it because "it worked".

It makes me so cross and sad for the babies concerned who are subject to draconian regimes. Why are we so negative about babies in this country and so determined from Day one to impose on them a routine that makes our lives convenient, not theirs.

I know I will be flamed .

Havent read the whole thread, but skimmed bits.

Imo the problem is that in recent years we have had so much information thrown at us that we have lost our instincts.

Gina Ford (dont get me started....), Supernanny etal are all saying that babies and young children need to be controlled and regulated. We read about routines in all the baby mags, you have the bathtime routine, mealtime routine blah blah.

In the middle of all of this is a mad new mother, looking like a rabbit caught in the headlights wondering what the FUCK she is supposed to do with this tiny screaming bundle! And because of the information overload she is terrified of listening to her own instincts incase she is wrong, she isnt an overpaid self satisfied expert after all. So in her desperation she turns to one of hundreds of books to tell her what to do. And as these books tell her that babies should be sleeping through within days of starting the routine, and magazines are telling her that "Super Celebs" baby slept through at 2 days old, she feels like a failure if she is still up half the night at 8 weeks!

The lack of support from extended family, as used to be the norm with everyone living on the same street etc, contributes to this. That and the expectation that we can control everything in our lives if we only have the right tools.

It isnt surprising at all that some women will cleave to these routines in a desperate attempt to regain some control over what they may feel is a situation skidding away from them.

Bogeyface that is an excellent post and I totally agree about the control thing. It's hard though then that's what you're used to because for many people (myself included), feeling some sense of control, however illusory, can make you feel saner and, dare I say it, happier.

But I was totally fucked up by the books first time round, didn't help that I had a refluxy, colicky baby and the books said that by following their routines (both Baby Whisperer and GF) it should help a little. Having a routine did, but only after about 4 months when the stomach pain had settled down.

Just had another DS 4 weeks ago, and he's another screamer (have to disagree with the poster who said second babies are easier, def not always the case!) and I would love to have a routine, esp with a toddler to look after too, but I know it won't happen for ages and I'll have to wing it.

londonlottie i don't think many people do expect their babies to sleep through from day one. But they may well expect their newborn to feed every 3-4 hours, to wake just once or twice in the night and go back to sleep straight after a feed, to settle in their crib or moses basket for long daytime sleeps etc. And not all (or even the majority) of new babies do this. There is also an expectation that within a set period (usually 3 months, in my experience) babies should be sleeping through the night. Again, many many babies aren't - but there is still that expectation.

Actually, I think one of the big problems is the myth we're sold that if you get a baby into so-callled 'bad' habits they will stay that way forever. Its that whole 'rod for your own back' thing, and can be terrifying for a new mum (or dad). The idea that if you don't 'teach' your baby to self-settle/sleep through the night or whatever at a certain age then they will never learn how to. Rubbish in my view, but is pretty powerful in terms of making new parents doubt their own instincts and rush for a 'solution'.

Also agree with bogeyface about the control thing.

It's about having a sensitive hand on the reign. I didn't put my DD for the first 2 months of her life, as she hated it. We co-slept (by which I mean she slept ON me).

Now though she is 20 month and she is much better able to be independent. She sleeps through half of the time, though she isn't yet ready to be a 100% sleeper-through. In patches of separation anxiety she needs more reassurance.

I am sure she will grow out of it.

I do think how they sleep is influenced to a limited extent by what you do as a parent. You can make tweaks to how they spend their day, to help them sleep better. Eg with my DD we try to get her out in the fresh air every day. After a bad sleeping patch where we were lying in later each morning and her mealtimes and bedtime were consequently getting later and later, I said "enough's enough" and now I make sure we are up and about early, so that we have a sensible bedtime at the end of the day.

But while you can influence things, I think you have to accept that as a parent you are not going to be in control of everything. If your 18 mth old is in an anxious phase, better just to accept that they are going to be needier for a few weeks, and that it will pass. Trying to leave a separation-anxious child to cry is unlikely to work IME, at least not without a good deal of heartbreak.

bubbly" how happy were your children when left to cry"

Ten times more happy than when fed on demand. Prior to cc they were constantly cranky,irritable,stressed as was I.

They hated the lack of a routine and having to cry for food. They hated having a stressed out exhausted mother. 3 nights of cc which involved the odd spurt of crying for 4 mins or so and we never looked back.

Totally different babies,blissfully happy and contented as was I, so much so I fell pg when they were 6 months old after years of IVF treatment.

The difficulty I found (and still do to a certain extent) was the pressure from extended family, specifically mum but including sisters and aunts, to get DD into a routine. Because mum fed her DCs four-hourly and ignored us at night if we cried () she thinks I'm totally soft for not letting DD cry it out. And I have immense pressure from all sides, I am contantly asked "when are you going to train her" from one DSis and even DH thinks it's time we let her cry it out. DD is 11m, she doesn't sleep through and her sleep has been getting worse but I still don't like the idea.

She just fell into her own routine at about 4 or 5 months. I wish books would tell you that the first few months are chaos, but ride out the storm and it will get better (instead of implying that it should be 'better' i.e. structured, from the start).

Mila - I'm not sure how not feeding a baby on demand would make them happier tbh or stop them from crying for food. I'm actually getting a bit confused! Unless you were bottlefeeding in which case I would understand that you would need to have a vague idea of when they were going to feed otherwise they would be crying while you made up the bottles. Is that what you mean? What does that have to do with CC?

morning - not point scoring. milimae said babies were happy regardless of which method is used and I disagree that a baby being left to cry is happy. It's the truth - if you can't face it then don't let them cry. Moooooooooo :)

Did you not read my post?

Believe me y babies cried a lot more before we did cc,so prior to cc my babies weren't happy -at all. After they were-blissfully so.

You mentioned that they were happier than when they were fed on demand and when they had to cry for food. I'm not sure what either of those has to do with CC. I realise that you used CC for sleep but bow did that change them being fed on demand or not having to cry for food?

But there is a difference between "letting them cry it out" and cc isn't there?

I first tried cc at 6 months (GF style) and lasted until he was crying hysterically for 17 mins, then, as I was then crying myself gave up and vowed never again.

At ten months (when I was working and really needed him to be able to self soothe a bit) the HV told me to try again but this time never go longer than ten mins (less if he sounded really distressed)
I tried it, and it was a combination of him being that bit older and more secure, and not having this indefinite length of time for him to cry, and it worked fine. He didn't actually cry that much that time.

So there are gradations within the whole "letting them cry" thing.
Also,he always used to wake at six but one morning I was so tired I fell back to sleep while he was grizzling (we shared a room until he was one) and woke up at seven thirty. DS was fast asleep again and has slept til seven or seven thirty since!

Its all to do with age of baby, how secure they are in knowing that you really are there, and your own instincts.

Also (and maybe controversial) a good size baby does not actually need to feed in the night between say 11 pm and 6 am after the age of about 6 months. I am sure they would all like to, but they dont need it.

Northernrock re feeding at night - that's a bit of a sweeping generalisation. Some babies need fed at night regardless of their size. Also worth remembering that milk is a drink too. Do you never wake up thirsty during the night?

Ok, it is a generalisation. And obviously if my baby had woken up screaming hungry after this age I would have given him milk, but usually he was waking up with a bit of a grizzle, having a little cuddle and then back to sleep.
What I mean is that physically, if they are weaned, they don't need actual food in the night.

BennyMoore What on earth are you talking about? where is the child neglect/cruelty?

bennymoore - I assume you are joking or know fuck all about proper child neglect.

I have reported that particular comment..

In fact I'll tell you about the neglect I had the joy of seeing this last year at work.

A 3 year old left for 8 hours on their own everyday over the holidays as the mum went to work.

A 6 year old pouring their mum a cider at 9.30 this morning, despite her assurances that she had given up the booze.

An 8 year who got to watch his Mum being raped by his dad regularly...

I could go on and on.

Agree with northernrock that most babies don't actually need feeding between about 11 pm - 6 am after about 6 months. They may very well wake out of habit, and have milk, but it doesn't mean they need it. Nor should they need a drink during the night (though again, they may well have it if offered)

Of course there are exceptions to this, and my prem baby was certainly one of them, but having had two full term babies as well, I can see that many babies sleep really well from a few months old (dd1 slept through at 12 weeks).

Just because a baby wakes and can't settle well, doesn;t necessarily mean it physically needs to eat or drink - just as many adults don't sleep well, and have very broken nights, but it doesn't mean they aren't eating enough

If a baby wakes up I would much rather offer milk on the off chance that he/she is hungry/thirsty or even just wants a bit of comfort and have them nod back off to sleep quickly than leave them to get themselves worked up into a wide awake mess! I do not think the middle of the night is the time to start testing whether or not my baby still NEEDS milk for whatever reason! :)

Has Xenia run away?

I don't feed my baby between 11-6, but he isn't left to get worked up. His dad gives him a cuddle and tucks him back in.

Bubbleymummy By the weaning stage the baby doesnt need milk, they are just not getting enough food during the day or are in a bad habit.