to think that surely not EVERYONE hates Maggie?

[LadyOfTheManor]

Seriously, unless you're a miner or from a mining family, or Welsh... ok well even if you are, surely not EVERYONE hates Maggie T?

I'm a tad young, I was born in her "reign", but I did my degree in Politics and although I didn't really live under her (it was Major until I was 11) I couldn't see what she did that was SO terrible-let alone the sheer hostility when her name is mentioned here (in Wales!).

I blame Thatcher

PS - also just thought. Perhaps MT provokes 'wildly divergent' reactions because inequality inreased rapidly and visibly under Thatcher's govts?

Anyway, the OP's point was "Surely not everyone hates MT" and this has surely been admirably proven.

There are
1)Those who hate her personally.
2)Those who dislike her.
3)Those who would be critical of some of her policies (and said so at the time) without using any "ad feminam" language as such.
4)Those who think she took many difficult decisions to push through an ideology they would not especially agree with.
5) Those (few) who are ambivalent or don't care.
6)Those who think she did a good job, and said so at the time.
7)Those who think she did a very good job.
8)Those who mindlessly worship her.

There are dozens, possibly even hundreds, of other permutations and sub-sections.

Its simply isn't cut and dried.
I'd put myself somewhere between 3 and 4.

newwave - I suppose you don't care either way and salute the 'freedom fighters' of the IRA regardless.

Not at all, both sides of the divide were in the main inhuman thugs. I do however believe the right to a fair trial, I did then and i do now.

notenoughsocks - oh, I don't think being anti-cuts qualifies one. There are plenty in the centre who are. I'd generally equate it with being left enough to go out on the streets selling the Socialist Worker.

Ok.

I'm always a little puzzled by the "champagne socialist" jibe. Just because I can afford to drink champagne on special occasions does not mean I don't empathise with those less well off than myself nor want to vote and pay my taxes to assist those members of society in that position. Just as Tory's do not require you to show your net worth beofre agreeing you'll vote for them, it isn't a socialist requirement to forsake any personal wealth you may have. The difference is I CARE about those who suffer/suffered under the Torys, I CARE about a wider society than myself.

I'm well aware that a personal anecdote does not equate to a statistically relevant sample in a debate. It does, however, explain why I despise Thatcher and why I make no apology for my previous post. So here goes, it's a LONG story:

During the 80s, on Merseyside, my dad lost his job not once or twice but 5 times. The factories he worked in closed. He worked in manufacturing. At the same time as his penultimate job loss his brother, a resident in a secure hospital (due to his mental illness) was murdered. This was the indirect result of the money saving "Care in the Community policy" which saw those too difficult to home amongst the public left in institutions with insufficient funds to provide staff and facilities. In the spirit of protecting the incumbent authorities the results of the health authority's inquiry in to this was kept private, even from my family. This resulted in my dad having a breakdown from which he hasn't ever recovered and that resulted in my mum becoming an alcoholic. [Neither Thatcher's direct doing but examples of what happened to people who struggled and suffered as the Tory's sat back in their huge home counties houses and did nothing.]

I was 14 at the time and at the local comp. Regularly parts of the school ceiling fell in from leaks as there was no money to repair the roof. In art there was a term where we drew on newspaper as funds had run out for materials. The local teabag factory donated their offcuts as hand wipes because there was no money for paper towels. In maths there was one textbook for the whole class. The teacher copied the questions onto the blackboard and half the lesson was spent copying it down instead of learning maths. My brother was taught in classes of mixed year groups of 40+ kids as his primary school was overcrowded and underfunded. His teacher didn't notice he wasn't doing any work for most of a year.

I seethe when I think what many like us endured under Thatcher. The whinger/scrounger stereotype was coined conveniently to make the southerners/Torys feel better. I wouldn't want any child to endure hearing their dad sob out of utter helpnessness.

THAT is what "I lived through the '80s" means to me. Thousand if not millions of families grew up devoid of hope, devoid of purpose.

The real shame is that she'll never understand suffering like those she inflicted it upon.

popelle Sun 30-Jan-11 22:08:15
"Am I the only one who finds it strange that some people are moaning about the lack of a compassionate society and in the next sentence they start talking about dancing on someones grave."

Sums up the entire debate perfectly.

Actually I think herethereandeverywhere's post sums up the debate pretty much.

That kind of personal account, multiplied many times over on this thread, is why people dislike her, can't forgive her, will not agree with those who say she was an okay lady doing difficult things.

UQD, if someone is going around breaking peoples legs with a baseball bat my compassion is the the victims not the perpetrator.

Ditto with Thatcher, "she had the bat"

Pascoe, I am interested in your take on the current street demonstrations in various states in the Middle East and North Africa, given your derisive use of the term 'freedom fighters'.

I appreciate that your last post was not directed at me, but I would like to state that I salute nobody involved in the mess that was the Northern Ireland body politic from 1920 onwards. When there is a vacuum instead of real and responsible political leadership, militias spring up and the ideas and aims of extremists gain traction. When a politician pours fuel on the flames of sectarian hatred and mutual fear regardless of the consequences in terms of real human lives, just because she can, she does no favours to her own reputation.

Thatcher's own constituents lived far from the riots and the tear gas; she saw things in NI in very simplistic terms and chose her words on the subject with a view to her own gallery and not with leadership or improvement of the lives of real people in mind. She deserves all the derision that has been heaped upon her wrt her involvement in NI, not least because of what she and her government did to the reputation of the police and the courts with her continued insistence on the necessity for the perversion of justice there.

But newwave, the very vocabulary you use in that metaphor indicates that you are not going to be coming at this from a balanced angle.

I think a lot of this talk is just the swagger of the playground. When the time comes and she does pop her clogs - and let's face it, she is an elderly lady not in the best of health, so we can expect it this decade - a lot of people will not have the heart to be quite so spiteful.

Has anyone seen the final episode of "It Ain't Half Hot Mum"? Where they are all being demobbed? The gang have spent a few years building up resentment towards the Sergeant Major and they're all egging each other on, discussing how they are going to lay into him the second they are all civvies again. Then, when it actually happens, he cuts such a cowed and pathetic figure that nobody wants to be the first to go over and punch him on the nose. And they all just decide to leave him. It's a very touching and well-written scene, in which we, and the characters, realise that they are better people than they imagined themselves to be.

UQD, Be assured when she dies i will have a broad smile and celebratory drink and enjoy every minute of it. If anyone says to me "it's sad" or "she was great" i will smile or maybe have a chuckle. I will also wear my "Thatchers dead" T shirt to work on dress down Friday.

BTW, Thatchers old mate Pinochet was in poor health before he died does that excuse what he did when younger.

UQD But newwave, the very vocabulary you use in that metaphor indicates that you are not going to be coming at this from a balanced angle.

How so, she hurt people and I have/had compassion for those she hurt not her who caused the hurt.

I remember when she was elected and my great nanna a former suffragette took me out to celebrate. I may have been little but I was so thrilled a woman had come to power.

Now looking back at her I wonder if she had to be so self obsessed/nutty just to assert herself in such a man's world.

I have a vague sneaking admiration for her just for stepping on all those Tory boys but she truly was a nightmare. I don't think I ever agreed with a thing she did or said.

mathanxiety - the vote...it's all about whether you have the vote or not.

Pascoe - the vote is the key. Would it surprise you that the problems in NI stemmed from systematic denial of basic civil rights such as electoral rights, housing rights and the existence and application of police powers under the Special Powers Act, from 1920 onwards?

The Civil Rights movement in NI modelled itself on the American Civil Rights movement. It demanded:

• 'One man, one vote' which meant extension of the local government franchise from ratepayers to all those over 21. Ratepayer franchise discriminated disproportionately against Catholics who tended to be poor and therefore lived in overcrowded private houses where there could be only one ratepayer or if they managed to secure a council house (see the effects of gerrymandering below) they had no vote.
• An end to gerrymandering which meant Unionists were elected even in districts with Catholic majorities (see Londonderry City Council for an extreme example).
• An end to discrimination in housing (which was a direct result of gerrymandering of local councils).
• An end to discrimination in jobs (speaks for itself really).
• The disbandment of the B-Specials, the Ulster Special Constabulary, which many viewed as sectarian, and which had powers of arrest and detention that would never have been acceptable in Britain.

There are many parallels with the unrest in N. Africa and the Middle East. You are mistaken if you think there were universal voting rights in NI from 1920 onwards, (or that all anyone had to do was vote and everything would be resolved).

I don't expect you to "sympathise", I do expect you to know the first thing about it if you are going to talk about it. Which you clearly don't.

You know the one thing Thatcher achieved with her hard line on the hunger strikers? A massive upsurge in IRA membership. She made martyrs, she mad enemies, she made an army bigger and angrier, and she made a big fucking mess.

Er, I grew up in the north of England under and during her reign. I was at university when she resigned. Amazingly I felt really pissed off that she'd resigned as I knew we'd end up with another term of Tories - which we did.

Ladyofthemanor - really, if you really want to know, then I'm sure there are plenty of people on thsi thread that can enlighten you. For starters:

• • poll tax (average family rates went form a couple of hundred quid a year to nigh on £5-600 per adult in each household, so a family could end up paying £2k a year).
• • taking milk of babies (well primary school kids).
• • Privatising national industries.
• • Destroying whole communities by closing pits, factories etc..,
• • Telling people that if they didn't have a car by the age of 26 they hadn't made it (that one is particularly laughable now).
• • Aboloshing appreticeships.
• • Aboloshing grants and introducing student loans and fees (not sure if fees were under her stewardship but the seeds were sown).
• • I could go on and on but I'm in need of sleep as I've got to get on my bike and get to work in a 6 hours (another little saying from her mate Norman Tebbit - get on yer bike [and get to work].

And now Gerry Adams may be a candidate in the elections of the Republic - certainly many of his profoundly anti-democratic cronies will. He got his start in front of the cameras during the hunger strikes.

And one other thing. I despised Thatcher at the time and now I despise what she did to the country.

Herethereandeverwhere - I've just read your thread and I'm so sorry for what happened to your family. My family suffered too as a result of MT but not to the extent of yours.

LAdyofthemanor - Cameron, Clegg and OSborne are very much as bad as Thatcher if you ask me, they are fucking the coutnry up with a veneer of fake smiles, pretence empathy and this bullshit of empowering people and 'fairness'.

Really if you do want to truly know more about Thatcher, I suggest you go to any town/city north of Watford and speak to anyone aged 38 or over.

Not may be, he is, he's the candidate in my area.
There's a man who was interred, imprisoned without trial, twice. He only actually was sentenced at trial for attempting to escape.

Where I live it commonly said that thatcher should be charged with mass murder due to the amount of people who committed suicide under her 'reign'.
I will guarantee that there will be masses of parties when she dies.

I thought the reason the mines were shut down is because the coal they extracted was hopelessly expensive compared to imported coal that had been obtained from opencast mining.

So no choice in the end.

correct- cheaper to mine it in Queensland, rail it to the port, load it, ship it to Rotterdam, unload and reload and send to the UK and rail it to the power station, than to mine it in the UK and rail to the power station