to think that surely not EVERYONE hates Maggie?

[LadyOfTheManor]

Seriously, unless you're a miner or from a mining family, or Welsh... ok well even if you are, surely not EVERYONE hates Maggie T?

I'm a tad young, I was born in her "reign", but I did my degree in Politics and although I didn't really live under her (it was Major until I was 11) I couldn't see what she did that was SO terrible-let alone the sheer hostility when her name is mentioned here (in Wales!).

really - I did :)

and one womans reckless overspending is another investment in the welfare of society

and I guess the global economic crisis had no impact what so ever

obviously the tory answer is working brilliantly - oh no hang on we are going into a double dip ... brilliant

She's just as irksome a politician as they all are. I just object to the idea that she is some kind of special case deserving of such childish, simplistic rage.

Of course it is simple to understand, she took relish in hurting those who she despised or were not "people like us" and she showed it. Hateful cow who deserves to be hated.

What depresses me is that some of my harder left friends have actually started to use this reductivist logic in relation to the current situation - one actually said to me "There is no middle ground, you are for cuts or against cuts, make a choice, choose a side." My thoughts: NO! I fucking won't, not when you present it to me in that patronisingly reductive way. Out loud, I tried to put it more diplomatically.

It is so SAD to see the supposedly intellectual Left reduced to using the polemic of George Bush.

Oh, that old chestnut, 'It was the Bankers what done it!!'

I think it's scary that apparently "normal" rational parents can argue on here what a great women Thatcher was. It's truly shocking.

But I guess she was very successful in the 80s at fooling a large proportion of the country so I guess it's understandable that some people are still falling for her lies.

"Some" people still think that Bush, Mussolini and even Hitler etc were great leaders, extreme I know but just saying

well maybe you could edumacate them UQD

if you genuinely think there is no other way - oh like maybe INVESTING rather than cutting

and do you know a simple rise of maybe £1.50 in most peoples pole tax would save a lot of services - but you can;t raise poll tax oh no ..

cut are not ineviatable no matter what people tell you - there is an alternative - so I tend to agree with your mates - but then I am probably not as clever as you

and who mentioned bankers? although well now you've said it do you think they are blameless?

I don't see much evidence of your intellect UQD, apparently you can't do it in a forum post, yet you want to judge "The Left" on the basis of theirs?

UQD - you are the voice of reason.

Could you form a new political party please?

Oh, that old chestnut, 'It was the Bankers what done it!!'

My mistake, it was a dream that the bankers nearly destroyed the banking system and had to be bailed out with billions from the public purse.

you must have newwave!

newwave - likewise.

BuzzLightBeer - if you expect me to waste one second sympathising over the self-inflicted deaths of the IRA hunger strikers you are, yet again, going to be disappointed that not everyone sees the world in the simplistic way that you do.

Margaret Thatcher was the best PM since Churchill; the Left know this - they haven't had anyone to even come close to her for decades (Wilson was their last brilliant leader) - and they hate her for it and for forcing them to face up to the realities of the modern world.

She created New Labour, in effect.

As Alan Johnson said, when he was the leader of the Communications Workers Union, voting for John Smith's "one member, one vote" reforms, of those left-wing union leaders that voted against the proposals, "some of my colleagues in the trade union movement see electoral victory as some sort of bourgeois conspiracy..." They saw the need to be true to their 'principles' as more important than winning power.

And Buzz, you ask above "Didn't people celebrate Hitler's death? Stalin? Mussolini? Franco? Saddam Hussein?"

I'm sure, but you don't see debates raging on these boards or any others about the nature of their time in power.

I don't think I've seen one single post anywhere (outside the lunatic fringes) claiming that Saddam Hussein was a politician doing his job, or Hitler was a controversial figure who had to take unpopular decisions. Correct me if I am wrong.

The people you cite were all dictators, universally recognised as evil. You can hate Thatcher all you like, if you must, but she was elected as democratically as any other British leader and, as evidenced on this board and elsewhere, provokes wildly divergent reactions to her time in office.

Wah? Now I'm confused. Gordy, I thought you hated Thatcher but now you want a poll tax?

We can't increase spending because there is no money.

newwave is hilarious!

Churchill was rubbish! certainly second time round bless him

anyway off to bed - have to get up in the morning and help some kids try and find work - or training - but who wants to go into training when you don;t get EMA - would you work for nothing?

still from April my job wont exist yay! god help them x

The problem with the extreme Left is that they think their political position automatically equates to "moral", and that they are therefore "better", and that it's therefore OK to use the same reductive and simplistic vocabulary which is odious coming from the Right because the choices the left espouses are the morally "good" ones.

It's just bullshit. No political position in a democracy automatically equates to "moral".

pmsl we HAVE a poll tax - It's how we raise money locally - it's not a case of wanting it blimey read a book

night x

Re the bankers, don't forget that the bail out involved buying shares in the banks that have since increased in value. And did it not occur under a labour govt that had been in power for 10 years - time to change things if they had wanted too.

if you expect me to waste one second sympathising over the self-inflicted deaths of the IRA hunger strikers you are, yet again, going to be disappointed that not everyone sees the world in the simplistic way that you do.

I doubt they would have wanted your sympathy just a fair trial in front of a jury not a government appointed "Judge"

I suppose you think the Guilford and Birmingham "bombers" were guilty as well.

newwave - I suppose you don't care either way and salute the 'freedom fighters' of the IRA regardless.

newwave is hilarious! and correct in every way.

Am I the only one who finds it strange that some people are moaning about the lack of a compassionate society and in the next sentence they start talking about dancing on someones grave.

UQT, have been reading your posts with interest. Just wondering - how do you define 'hard' or 'extreme' left? Are we talking a sort of anti-cut stance or belief in imminent revolution? (spelling corrections are welcomed)

(Apologies if I don't manage to get reply. LO is poorly but would like to know nonetheless).

how insulting are you Pascoe - a true tory really - seeing injustice in the treatment of people makes you a total IRA sympathiser

I guess some things never change - anyway - seriously - good night