to wonder what the fuss is regarding Private Schools?

[peppapigandhumf]

A friend has 2 kids at a local prep school. She doesnt really bang on about the school to me etc but i wonder why bother pay for education when schooling is free.

Is it really just about small class sizes and fancy expensive uniforms?

I don't know of any schools were none of the teachers has more than five years experience or higher than a 2.2 degree - do you?

And you have sort of undermined that argument by invoking the idea of 'significant proportion' - surely that proportion would be less significant if all the affluent parents with the lovely middle-class kids sent their kids there? Or do those parents have so little faith in their children that they think a year in the local comp would have them shooting up before their 13th birthday?

where

Teachers aren't necessarily better qualified or better though.

"It's everything to do with cash - the kids whose parents don't have any, aren't there!"

Joan that is so untrue!!! I have a friend whose ds is at a school where the fees are almost £14k per year - she is a single mum and a TA and she pays £100 per year for her son to go there.

One of the good things about ds's school is the sheer number of scholarships and bursaries on offer means that children from ordinary backgrounds do go there - it is not some sort of bubble of privilege.

Depends where you live and what your individual children need. For us DS needed:

Excellent sport and facilities
Excellent music and facilities
Access to classical and modern languages for all
Three separate sciences for all to GCSE
Commitment to academic excellence
Excellent pastoral care
Excellent communication with parents
Overall ethos in line with our own
Confidence inspiring
Excellent leadership
Excellent role models for the children
Excellent contacts for the future
An environment that would stretch him to his full potential
Competition on and off the field

DD needs:

A gentle environment
A small school
Excellent music
Excellent foreign languages
Excellent maths teaching
nurturing
Excellent role models
Good home communication
Confidence boosting environment

Really importantly, the introduction of specialist subject teaching from the age of 8. This I truly believe is where state schools go wrong. Primary school teachers are expected to be jacks of all trades and end up expert of none. It's unfair on the staff and unfair on the children.

The bottom line is that money buys choice - but only to an extent - the top performing schools chose who to take.

IIRC, at DSs school, the minimum you have to pay is £200 for incomes in the region of £19,000 pa or so. Obviously the bursary pot isn't bottomless but there are also up to 50% sports, music and academic scholarships available (and you can have more than one scholarship although I'm not sure what happens if you get 3 50% ones :o)

specialist teachers at Year 3? Do you mean they have a speacilist Maths, English teacher etc?

If thats the case, then this is by far the best arguement i have had!

Visit a few to get a feel for the difference.. There are lots.. Been very happy with mine. Aside from academic stuff, things like behaviour, matters, speaking nicely etc are there too. If that's important to you.

I had some shocking teachers at independent school (one of the Times current top twenty schools so can't be explained away by saying oh but that was a bad school in general). The winner in the useless awards was the english literature A level teacher who refused to make reference to or say the word "sex" or any kind of related euphemism for the entire term she "taught" us The Handmaids Tale. So I wouldn't say that teachers are uniformly good. I think for me it is all about the atmosphere and the expectations that an academic school has. If you're a bright child, you will do very well, at least partly because you won't be allowed to coast or slip through the cracks or become lazy because the teacher is ignoring you in favour of quelling a riot in the corner or just dealing with a mixed ability class of 30.

DD is going to prep school, because I've looked at all the options and I believe that in our case it will give her the best possible start in life. We'll reassess when she is 11 and see what would best suit her needs, but I'm in the very fortunate position of having options so I want to do the best I can for her.

Aaaaaaaaaaargh! Sick to death of the private vs state argument. Have worked as a teacher in both. My dd going to state. Yes good extra curricular at private but an irrelevant point as often has to be paid for, I can actually afford to pay for it if she's at state. Results better at private, interesting one that there are many very 'good' selective private schools not getting 100 percent 5 a-c (obviously not including those doing igcse) surely 97 in these schools is far worse than 50 in a non selective school. Shocking and excellent teachers in both, although the truly passionate teachers usually in state. There are good and bad points about both and in some places your local catchment school might be the deciding factor. Where I live the local schools are fine and I do not think that what the privates are offering is in any way worth the money. I see it as is the school £x better than the local comp. It's really up to individuals of they want to go private But reading many posts it's obviously a snob factor thing for some people. There arguments are simply that they think they are better, sometimesthey are, but often it doesn't make that much difference.

Yes, my children had specialist teachers for most subjects from year 3 at prep school. That, plus the class sizes (12-13, perfect amount of attention for my son who had just spent 3 years starting out the window in classes of 35-36), 6 hours a week of games and PE, really inspired extra-curricular activities.

Yes, put like that I can't see why we did it either. Especially when the alternative was more classes of 35 for another 4 years, a school that demonised normal boy behaviour, no morning break, and only x country running or music and movement as sports.

Sorry that should be 'their arguments' before anyone pulls up the grammar of the ( currently state school) teacher.

Ah you are right, SoupDragon - 'tis £201 - it has gone up! This is at the other place.

Joan: I know a local school where funding cuts, pupil violence and poor leadership meant that all the more experienced, higher paid teachers apart from the head and 2 deputies were made redundant or quit in the space of 3 years. It isn't even a failing school (yet) but the exodus had a massive effect on the exam results and OFSTED report for the school.

I'd also observe that out of my friends and acquaintances who went into teaching the majority had a 2:2 and didn't know what else to do. The combination of these two is particularly unfortunate. (Nothing wrong with having a 2:2 in itself but in several European countries with better education systems, the entry requirement is higher and often includes a Masters in addition to teacher training on top of a first degree.)

It's not a big stretch of the imagination to see that there could be schools where these two factors come together.

"do those parents have so little faith in their children that they think a year in the local comp would have them shooting up before their 13th birthday?"

Yes, and I think that in some areas where I've lived or worked this is a perfectly reasonable position re the local comp. I certainly wasn't clued up on why I shouldn't take hard drugs at that age and probably would have tried them if they were ever on offer.

Why would sending in a bunch of middle-class kids suddenly solve the local comp's drug problem?

I must say I've never seen classes of 30+ in state (as a teacher) I thought the limit was 30? But then even that seems huge to me, I went to a very selective private and classes were around 10 for primary and secondary.

ninky, my son was born in July 1993 (young for his year). My older daughter's year (born 1995) was the first year they capped numbers to 30 for infant schools (but not junior level). It was a disaster for him. She was luckier.

I think the private vs state issue is a question of area. Some areas have great state school, some areas do have terrible problems with education.

I don't think anyone would go private for the uniform . That sounds a bit mad.

People do go private for the class sizes and also because private school can easily expel a pupil who is jeopardising the education of others. A state school has a far more difficult job when it comes to expulsion.

A family member has taught in both sectors and prefers the private sector. When he was in the state sector, he had some lovely bright pupils who he really wanted to teach. Unfortunately he was not able to because he was more concerned with physically protecting himself from being assaulted by a 12yo (there was another adult present so no question of what went on!). In the private sector (he loves his subject), he can concentrate on the subject and he does not have to do much discipline. I suppose that may just be the sort of teacher he is. Of course there are naughty kids at private schools, but there is more teachers can do - at his last state school, he issued detention and the children didn't turn up and there is literally nothing he can do about it. At the private school he is currently at, this sort of thing would start to make a case for expulsion.

Joan, you've made the assumption that it's my sentiment! It's not. But it is a real factor in people's decisions.

Class of degree means f*ck all when you're faced with 30 teenagers...

:o @ "the other place"

"Yes good extra curricular at private but an irrelevant point as often has to be paid for"

DS is doing after school swimming free. And lunchtime paper geometry club, also free. There is also Dalek Building Club and a variety of "Hard Sums" clubs. All free. WEll, not free if you take into account the fact that we've already paid school fees. However, DS2, at state primary, is currently doing Enterprise Club at a cost of £36 a term. IIRC his drumming, ICT, Archery and other clubs all had a cost attached to them too.

As a trained sec teacher I can confirm that teaching 30 teenagers is a combination of excellent subject knowledge and fine interpersonal skills. If you're shit they know it and contrary to what many people think, it does matter and they do care and not respect you. If you have an unpleasant personality and/or are crap at communicating they will not respect you and will not want to learn from you. It is extremely important to get excellent people in with very good subject knowledge in order to do the vocation justice.

Peppapig - yes from 8 - specialist subject teaching across the board. It's certainly what tipped it for us.

backwardposson, class of degree alone means fuck all, but academic qualifications, together with other qualities and excellent training mean a lot. Look at Finland. Look at TeachFirst. Look at Singapore.

What it mostly boils down to is a choice between schools A, B, C and D. With school E being an option if you can afford it or gain a sufficient bursary/scholarship to make it a viable option.

If school A requires a security guard to be on duty at the bus stop at kicking out time, you'll probably cross that one off.
School B is a church school, so no luck there
School C is a failing school with a similar reputation to School A.
School D, your local one and a pretty good school, unfortunately has a bizarre Feeder School system which means that local children can be overlooked in favour of those living much further away.
Thus, school E, a private one, comes into play.