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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Baroness Warsi taking advantage of her position

172 replies

GORGEOUSX · 20/01/2011 11:14

In thinking that it hasn't taken Baroness Warsi long to take advantage/abuse? her position by saying that she wants to fight bigotry towards Muslims.

Of all the causes she could have used her position to put her weight behind, I'm dismayed that she has chosen this one.

Perhaps Baroness Warsi will suggest to her fellow muslims that they should have a bit more tolerance of non-muslims around their own dinner tables and then maybe the media wouldn't be so quick to describe them as moderate or radical.

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methodsandmaterials · 20/01/2011 23:53

Well, the Arndale Shopping Centre bombing of 1996 was hardly a military target.

Deciduousblonde · 20/01/2011 23:54

"Also, the IRA claimed to aim only at military or police targets, not shops, schools or civilians."

Pubs & shopping malls must have been a mistake on their part then. Members of the IRA often blew themselves up, usually because they cocked-up. They were considered martyrs, just as suicide bombers are deemed martyrs, and will receive their reward in Heaven.

Appletrees · 20/01/2011 23:56

nor Warrington?

I don't know. I think what gets people's backs up is being told what to do, think, talk about.

dobiegirl · 20/01/2011 23:58

James McDade blew him self up, he didn't think he'd get his reward in heaven at all, he didn't give a stuff about religion, he just wanted the British out!!!

Needle · 20/01/2011 23:59

Methodsandmaterials it's very hard to have a reasoned debate with you if everytime I give you texual support for my argument, you tell me that it's a mistranslation, or a misinterpretation, or that every example of a Islamic terrorist is brainwashed or misled...
I think it's cowardly to keep insisting that what these people are being taught isn't responsible for what they're doing because it's been misinterpreted.

Even if it has been misinterpreted, and I maintain that it hasn't, we still have to look at what people are being taught to inspire them to these atrocities- they cannot be beyond scrutiny or discussion.

Needle · 21/01/2011 00:03

Ok, I've been told that the military targets thing is the official IRA line, not what actually happened. To be honest, I am too young to remember the IRA with much clarity, so I shouldn't have chipped in on the subject and you have my unreserved appology for any offence I may have caused.

methodsandmaterials · 21/01/2011 00:04

"Herein lies the problem- there isn't a figurehead to speak for Islam, so who can say which translation is correct."

You're right needles , translation is a massive problem, and the number of shocking translations of the Koran I have found is depressing.

Not being a Classics scholar, I could read something like the Iliad and misunderstand it completely. In order to fully appreciate its beauty and complexity, and to understand it's real meaning, I'd probably need more than a BTEC in Ancient Greek...
The Koran is the same... Plenty of people armed with rudimentary Arabic have come forward with "authentic" translations. They neither understand the complexities of the Arabic language, nor do they possess the grey matter to explain difficult passages in their appropriate context.

Authentic? Authentic, my bloody arse.

Deciduousblonde · 21/01/2011 00:05

That's the trouble dobiegirl. Some of the IRA and their sympathisers are about religion, others have just been born into it and don't really know what they are doing..yes, a kind of brainwashing.

The majority of Catholics & Protestants aren't like this towards one another. Ditto Muslims.

You are right Needle..we do have to look at what is being taught these people. I can't even watch programmes like 'BNP Wives' without having a fit at the downright dangerous things they believe.

Deciduousblonde · 21/01/2011 00:08

method..the transaltion aspect is always going to be a sticky one. I have heard of Muslims saying that the Quran is the only book which hasn't been translated..it's actually transliteral.

I don't see how it can be, as to transalte a book into many languages (or even just the one) is going to turn up some flaws. You only have to put some text into Babelfish online and see what you get..

Deciduousblonde · 21/01/2011 00:08

translate

Needle · 21/01/2011 00:10

I think the point is that the "incorrect "translations are being preached in the Mosques. Whether the translation is correct or not has become moot, it's what is being taught that's relevant, not whether it's linguistically correct. People are acting on what they're taught, not the etheral "true" meaning of the text.

methodsandmaterials · 21/01/2011 00:10

needles
You might not believe me, but I share your frustration. I also find it very frustrating when people use quotes from the Koran to illustrate Islam's stance on issue X, Y or Z.

The thing is that if the source material is, (in my estimation) fundamentally flawed, do I not have the right to say so? I am not blindly supporting anything, nor am I making excuses for disgraceful behavior. I am just trying to separate the actions of some crazy bastards from the religion they are hiding behind.

Deciduousblonde · 21/01/2011 00:16

Indeed Needle.

On a smaller note, it's rather like the Jehovahs Witnesses reading that they 'shalt not consume blood'

Whilst many have taken this to mean eating Halal meat, they read it as total non-consumption eg Blood Transfusions. Weirdly enough they don't eat Halal meat though Confused

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 21/01/2011 00:19

Her speech is broader than islamaphobia and it certainly doesn't say you cannot criticism muslims etc. Islamaphobia is not about debate as she correctly says a phobia is an irrational fear.
www.sayeedawarsi.com/2011/01/university-of-leicester-sir-sigmund-sternberg-lecture/

Make up your own minds based on what she actually said rather than extracts in the press.

Needle · 21/01/2011 00:20

Ok, my final word: I don't give a crap whether the bloke who blows himself up does it because he's read the original document, narrated by mohammed or been taught by an immam from an incorrect translation of the koran. The fact of the matter is that somewhere down the line he's been taught something in the name of Islam which has inspired him to strap on an exploding waistcoat.

It is what is being taught at our universities, schools and mosques that is important, not how correct it is. I don't think it would comfort your average starving afghan wife for example, that the law allowing her husband to starve her is in fact based on a flawed interpretation of the koran, she's just as hungry either way.

We HAVE to be able to have this debate. If muslims weren't so precious about their text, people wouldn't be so concerned about it. We cannot firewall debate about something which is so relevant to modern society> we have to know what is being taught to children in muslim schools and mosques. We have to be able to address the problem of domestic violence in the name of Islam and most importantly we have to learn to differntiate between "Islam" and "muslims" and "Islam-sceptic" (and yes, i did just make that up) and "Bigot".

Needle · 21/01/2011 00:24

methodsandmaterials (one brief footnote) it's the term "hiding behind", I object to because it implies that they're only using Islam as an excuse, wereas I maintain that they wouldn't be committing acts of terrorism in the first place if not for Islam, correctly translated or not.

And now i really ought to go to bed.

I've thoroughly enjoyed talking to you ladies, and wish you all a pleasant evening.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 21/01/2011 00:27

Sorry should read
cannot criticise

Appletrees · 21/01/2011 00:30

Thanks Chaz for the link. I do like that woman.

methodsandmaterials · 21/01/2011 00:31

Goodnight needle.
Smile

Donkeyswife · 21/01/2011 00:46

Er Gorgeousx since you are asking, I do think YABU. I don't think Baroness Warsi is abusing her position at all. I think she is better informed than me for example (as a non Muslim) to speak out about how she feels about Muslims being bigotrised (did I just make that word up Hmm?

I think it's great she's speaking out about something so important. If you look back at history, say in 1950's deep South USA for example, in certain circles black people were also frowned upon for standing up for their rights and branded trouble causers who should know their own place. I always think a mark of a civilised society is one which openly discusses and tolerates others' beliefs. I see Baroness Warsi as discussing the intolerance and hysteria surrounding Islam in this country. She is quite right to do so in my opinion.

GORGEOUSX · 21/01/2011 08:35

Perhaps people don't feel free to discuss their fears or concerns without being labelled 'bigots'.

Perhaps Baroness Warsi should be throwing her weight behind that instead. In England we have to walk on eggshells when it comes to discussing these things, because we are unfairly labelled bigots and racists if we have a concern.

Now we are told we should not use the words moderate or radical in the same sentence as Muslim.

Perhaps a better use of her position would be to allow debates without the terms bigotry and racism being hurled around when the British people raise a concern about the radicalisation of the young Muslims in Britain.

Let's just all go around with our eyes shut and pretend everything is great in Great Britain - and very British - and we have no worries whatsoever.

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GORGEOUSX · 21/01/2011 09:07

Also, the PC Brigade hide behind some sort of perceived higher moral ground.

I loathe the BNP and think that MANY MEMBERS are thugs, morons, idiots, racists but I don't doubt that they also have many members who feel they simply cannot voice a concern without the PC Brigade slandering them; so they join the BNP because they feel they can express their fears - that's one reason they won so many votes in a few local elections some years ago. That happened at a time when the PC Brigade were at fever-pitch.

When people feel they cannot voice their concerns, a backlash is created, as in the case of The Nederlands and Wilders.

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StewieGriffinsMom · 21/01/2011 10:04

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TheCoalitionNeedsYou · 21/01/2011 10:08

Of course it's not a coincidence that a lit of terrorism is associated with Islam. But it's not to do with anything inherent in Islam. It is a function of historical circumstance.
Before the second world war, pan-Arabic identity was largely secular.

Then during the cold war, the area became strategically important, we (the west ) became involved in propping up unpleasant, corrupt regions in order to keep their resources away from the soviets. This created a lot of ill feeling towards the west, but not particularly with an Islamic character. The Iranian embassy bombers were regional separatists not islamists.
Palestinian terrorism was early Marxist, and what Islamist there was was largely internally focussed, or connected to Lebanon where there was conflict between religious groups (there is one area where you can see various religions behaving equally badly).

That all changed with the end of the cold war. We suddenly didn't NEED to prop up these regimes any more, so they latched onto Islamism as a way to keep populations focused externally, building on the conflict in Lebanon, and resentment of the west support of Israel.

If the area had been Christian, and we had been another religion with a history of conflict with them, we could have got exactly the same results.

Do you think patriarchal community leaders in rural Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan would be any more liberal if they were a different religion? Are warlord in the tribal areas of Pakistan and Afghanistan behaving any differently to how they used to behave before they became Muslims?

The problem is NOT to do with Islam. It's a geopolitical one, in which Islam us a tool.

GORGEOUSX · 21/01/2011 10:20

Stewie When you say "if you are stupid enough" I HOPE YOU ARE NOT REFERRING TO ME - ERGO INFERRING THAT I AM A MEMBER OF THE BNP

I hope you meant to say 'if one is stupid enough.

I shall assume that it is a poor grasp/slip of English on your part and not an accusation towards me, personally.Shock

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