Baroness Warsi taking advantage of her position

[GORGEOUSX]

In thinking that it hasn't taken Baroness Warsi long to take advantage/abuse? her position by saying that she wants to fight bigotry towards Muslims.

Of all the causes she could have used her position to put her weight behind, I'm dismayed that she has chosen this one.

Perhaps Baroness Warsi will suggest to her fellow muslims that they should have a bit more tolerance of non-muslims around their own dinner tables and then maybe the media wouldn't be so quick to describe them as moderate or radical.

Of course there were muslims rubbing their hands in glee on 9/11... but hatred isn't just confined to the muslim world... I seem to recall the IRA getting ample support for its bombing campaigns in the 1970's-1980's.

I think you'll find that while a very vocal minority of Muslims danced on 9/11, the majority cried.

We should worry about Saudi Arabia Wahabbism theology being taught to children in this country if it is teaching people that they are the goodies and everyone else is the baddies. But not because it happens to be Islamic.

methodsandmaterials do you want a different quote to the one i've already posted? I've got lots.

chazs there's nothing random about my choice of quote, it illustrated my point perfectly.
No one is saying that the bible isn't full of nonsense, but the point is no one is telling us we're bad people or bigots for discussing it.
FWIW I had that reading at my wedding last year. It continues "husbands, love your wives..." rather than "admonish them, remain apart from them and beat them" as it does in al-nisa 4: 35-6 of the same edition of the Koran i've already mentioned.

And before you start waving your arms around again, i'm not calling all Muslims wife beaters, just quoting like for like.

Osama bin laden has issued 3 fatwah calling muslim brothers to take up arms against America, Al qaeda is totally anti - western and and views the Western world as enemies of Islam.

The IRA on the otherhand were trying to shake the British Government and scare the hell out of the protestants - I Just don't think they are on the same scale at all but that is just my opinion.

Re: Islam is "being used".

You have to deal with reality, the here and now. We don't live in the clouds, there isn't a hypothetical world where Islam exists outside its cultural expression.

It is "being used" oppressively on a domestic level, so much so that "being used" doesn't even obtain anymore as a descriptive phrase. The religion melts into the culture, and oppression melts into the substance of its practice.

You can't blame people for wanting to talk about this. Of course they haven't read the Koran, why would they? why would they meet muslims if there's a lack of integration? Why should they have their opinions dismissed if they don't know any Muslims personally? there will always be an element of "of course I don't mean Sonali from the PTA, she's not like that" but it really, really, does not serve a cause well to start lecturing people about trips down memory lane to the Inquisition and crusades.

You'll just be told : yes, and that was wrong then, and this is wrong now. And they'll be right. Islam is not just "being used" oppressively by Wahabi princes far away, it is "being used" oppressively now by ordinary individuals in the UK. Why should that be immune from comment?

THEW WORDS IN THE BOOKS DON'T MATTER. PEOPLE MAKE THEM MEAN WHATEVER THEY WANT.

Yes but coalition that is the point - it is Islamic - coming from Saudi Arabia - home of ISLAM!!! We should be worried!!

And I can't believe I have to repeat this point but we aren't discussing whether or not all Muslims are jihadists, we're discussing whether or not we have the right to discuss the nature of Islam. Most people are capable of differentiating between Islam as an abstract concept and Muslims as a social group.

needle
WRT Al-Nisa (4.34) and the question of wife beating: the word in question is daraba which many scholars have happily translated to mean beat. That is one of it's meanings yes, but it is used elsewhere in the Koran (over 50 times) and nowhere else has it been translated as such.

Given what comes after that particular passage, most enlightened scholars agree that in this context it means "to part from".

So no, not a green light for domestic violence.

Coalition They are irreleant to you, because you aren't a muslim. To a jihadist, they're incredibly relevant. You cannot take the animating inspiration away from millions of people who live by what it teaches.

We are happy to have lively debate about the mixture of common sense and insanity found in the bible. The Koran remains taboo for Kuffar.

Appletrees - The point is that is ISN'T Islam that is cause of the problems. It is groups of people behaving badly and using Islam as an excuse. As do Hindus, Christians, Jews, Anarchists etc.

The problem is with identifying these people as Muslims. Yes they are, but they are also, i don't know, people with mobile phones. Neither of these things causes them to behave the way they do.

Of course what they are doing is wrong but it is not as a result of Islam and looking to Islam to try and explain why they do what they do is a waste of time.

If you can take x away from y and replace it with z then x and z are not essential to y.

You can swap out Islam for Christianity, Hinduism, Communism, whatever and get exactly the same behaviors.

Funny, haven't heard of many Christian suicide bombers lately!!! Just because you're talking about EXACTLY THE SAME BEHAVIOURS!!

methodsandmaterials my copy of the Koran was given to my husband personally by the chairman of the Leicester University Islamic Society and clearly says beat. If that's the translation which is being condoned by the chairman of a major Universities official Islamic society, I think I have the right to be concerned. This Text is being handed out to students in our universities.

" The IRA on the otherhand were trying to shake the British Government and scare the hell out of the protestants"

dobiegirl
Yes, and they did so using a bombing campaign that costs innocent lives. Why is that more acceptable because you deem it to be on a smaller scale?

Not at all Method, but the IRA did go for more collateral damage rather than the full on body count which the muslim fundamentalists go for - and no of course that doesn't make it more acceptable!!!

Coalition are you saying that if these people weren't brought up muslim they would still be suicide bombers? Or is it a total coincidence that the majority of people who have the desire to blow themselves up just happen to be educated in the ways of Islam, a religion that tells them to kill blasphemers? They make videos saying that that's why they're doing it- so what right do you have to claim to know better?

needle, I'm sure it does read beat, and of course, it is very convenient for men to have it so. I don't doubt for a second that the translation is not just in your home, but in wide circulation. Of course it's bloody awful. My point is only that it is not correct.

Also, the IRA claimed to aim only at military or police targets, not shops, schools or civilians.

Oh it's dobiegirl again.

IRA are fighting for land.
Islamic extremists are fighting for land.

Both are doing so in the name of their gods.

Both are bombing other places and killing people.

So far the only difference I can see is the colour of their skin.. is that why you don't have such a problem with it?

Coaltion, Warsi isn't talking about prejudice against Islam. How pointless would that be. She's talking about prejudice against Muslims. It's pointless saying, Islam is not xyz, it's not in the Koran, when a lot of Muslims ARE xyz, whether or not it's in the Koran. That's what people don't like, or feel fearful of, or want to talk about.

It's no good saying, oh well that's in the Bible too, look at all this violence, because you'll be told : yes but we don't actually gouge people's eyes out any more because it's a bad thing to do. Therefore I reserve my right to judge people who do. Like, oppression of women: as a community and culture and in our laws we reject them. We've learned, we've moved on.

Even Egypt still requires two women for every male witness. You can't expect people not to tlk about these things and, yes, deplore them, and that is what it's going to feel like.

That's just an example, I know there isn't anyody in the uk gouging out eyes or chopping off hands.

Anyway, I still like the Baroness. I think she's rather good, I'd like her in charge of other stuff, like wimmin and such.

"Also, the IRA claimed to aim only at military or police targets, not shops, schools or civilians."

Oh well, that's ok then.. do you think the families of those killed by the IRA feel reassured?

Herein lies the problem- there isn't a figurehead to speak for Islam, so who can say which translation is correct.

God, Derrida would have a field day on this conversation.

needle, I understand your argument, but I would suggest that rather than these men being educated in Islam, I would argue that their actions stem from a profound lack of education, not only in Islam, but in everything. Don't think for a second that I have an ounce of pity for these men. I despise them, but I think they have been completely brainwashed and exploited.

KalokiMallow- of course not, and I'm not supporting the scum for a second- it's a shame the IRA bombers didn't do us the favour of blowing themselves up while they were at it. It was just an observation.

Oh KalokiMallow - I've been chatting away here, no name calling from anyone - listening to other people's point of views, having my own heard, no malice - why do I get the feeling all that is about to stop now and the insults are about to start?