... to think that most MNers live in a bubble?

[frgr]

Seriously, the amount of times I read on here about "oh we earn 70k a year but we're really struggle to provide for little Jacob's polo lessons this year" (or some other such shite).

In real life, the average income of my family and friends is probably circa the national average. I know for a fact that my BIL is on around £6/hr and works 42 hours a week, I know that my best friend's total family income is about 22k because she was talking about mortgages a month ago... I'm talking about hard working people who go out come rain or shine and do their day's work, to provide for their families.... and then I log on here and find out MNers are posting trivial shit about being unable to afford XYZ and feeling hard done by on their incomes of "only" 3x the national average.

I don't know if I've become more sensitive to this crap since starting re-posting on here last year (after a break of about 3 years), but it seems to me that certain members of MN are totally and utterly oblivious as to what the average family is having to endure during this recession.

It's fucking unbelievable, it really is.

In your opinion, why are so many MNers out of touch with reality? Does this site cater to a different class than me? Are avg MNers just generally deluded - do I even belong here any more, with our 21k combined income, worrying about where the next school trip fee is coming from despite the fact that both of us work?

Christ.

the irritating thing about the struggling rich is that it implies the poor who think they're actually doing ok feel a bit shit about it all

i suppose we are 'working poor' by MN standards and I find that annoying. We can afford a reasonable standard of living so wtf can someone bringing home 4k a month not?

and i have no sympathy for private school fee woes whatsoever - look on the brightside, if the children have to be state educated you can start one of those worthy threads about how you really could afford private but have chosen to send sprogs to the wonderfully diverse and vibrant state school that offers Mandarin Chinese

Most MNers do live in a bubble, but it's not all the same bubble, and very few live in the bubble you have described.

I agree with violeth.

Also I think there are several different equations.

You genuinely get people on say £40k a year before tax and always remember the before tax point, whose net sums after paying for housing as they don't get £20,800 housing benefit a month which is the maximum now, and who pay 50% of their joint salaries on child care as plenty of us have done over the years so we can work etc (we did) do not have more than some people on benefits. That is the middle income issue.

I am above that so not suggesting I'm in that category. I am deserving of no sympathy at all of course (principally because I seem to be happy and healthy whatever and that's my best thing of all, the income is nothing compared to that) and never expect it althought he isuses which are difficult in life life death, divorce disease affect us all.

Then there are people as I am who have never had a tax credit or childcare help in our lives, worked very hard for lots of years without a lot of things even some people on benefits take for granted etc who then do well. I hope people in my category always remember how little money many people have whether that's people on benefits or people on middle incomes who are not much better off after paying mortgage, childcare costs than those on benefits.

That doesn't mean even people in my category can't have for them relatively hard times. It's all relative. The starving in Africa would laugh at a UK benefits claimant making any complaint at all. It's all compartive. It's hard for people to take on a reduced standard of living although it does them no harm to do so and someone on £100k who loses their job will have a hard time adjusting, without doubt. I had a friend who had to sack 250 of their staff last year. They said the hardest bit was sacking those who had a wife and young family to support and ere on about £40k. The older ones on more mnoey and without dependents who probably had savings - was not such a difficult process. I am sure they were right.

It will certainly be interesting when those with big mortgages end up paying duoble what they ay now as interest rates rise. Then they might start to experience what those of us who remember 12% interest rates, 33% basic rate tax and childcare which cost more than our salary have had in the past. IN some ways for many we have never had it so good and poor Lord Young paid a high price for pointing that out.

Absolutely agree with that last paragraph Xenia. I too remember interest rates in double figures, childcare without any subsidies - paid the full whack for each child from when you returned to work (usually when child was about 12 weeks) - to the day they started school. Plus no working tax credits, child tax credits etc

The reality is, things are going to get harder, not easier, and that will affect us all. We've had it good for a long time- ridiculously, unaffordably good- and now the price is being paid

It's all relative- no matter what you earn there will always be someone who has more than you eg bigger house, more holidays, nicer car, etc.

We have plenty, but it doesn't stop me wanting more...

To those of you saying that a combined income of £50K doesn't get you very much in the SE, because housing costs etc are much more expensive - try managing those housing costs on far less than half of that figure. Which a heck of a lot of people in the SE will be trying to do.

It's not about 'competitive pooring', it's about the fact that if you have the money to even consider private schooling for your dc, you are NOT POOR.

It can be very galling for someone that is relying on one of these bursaries that the other thread is talking about to hear that someone on more than 4 times their income is trying to get a bursary that should be there to help dc like mine who would have no chance of Grammar school without it, as I couldn't even afford the uniform. (£55 for the blazer alone at the Grammar that DS1 will hopefully attend.

But, TBH, I'm inclined to agree that it's more the fact that the OP on the other thread is just blessed with a huge amount of stupidity, and stupidity isn't confined to rich or poor!

As the person who made the iPhone comment, i (obviously!) disagree that its the most judgey comment on the thread. An iphone is a luxury, not an essential end of. If a person chooses to have an iphone and cut back on other areas then fine - thats free choice- but it looks ridiculous to play the poverty card on MN when you're in that situation

It absolutely is all relative. When I was a new teacher and we lived in a rented flat we had two foreign holidays a year, ate out once a week, smoked, went to the cinema etc. Our household income (not currently as DP is SAHD) has doubled since then and yet our disposable income has disappeared. Entirely because we chose to buy a house and have children. I can't complain about that!
I was raised to think it bad manners to whinge about money and therefore I try not to in real life. Some close relatives of ours earn 100k and are currently having a loft conversion and looking at prep schools and yet, without fail, complain about being skint every time we see them. It's just rude!

Well the £22.50 quoted is with a 50per cent staff discount. For most people it would be £45.

My daughter has all that on a £15 contract (no discount) on a 2nd hand basic phone.

Mj -my point is that its all relative. £22.50 a month may well be a 'good 'deal'' - but it all depends whether you have £22.50 a month in the budget to pay for it!!

i like the fact that mn has folk from across the demographic spectrum.

Read the thread. No one has said people
Are making Poor choices. Just DIFFERENT choices. I am not judging anyone for choosing to have an iPhone over new clothes, for instance. I was simply saying, if you choose to have an iPhone , whether through judicious budgeting or not, don't bang on about living in poverty cos it ain't true!

And mj- the post wasn't aimed at you anyway, because as far as I can see you're not pleading poverty

YABU.

As I learned on another thread, even on £500k [sic] you won't be able to shop in Waitrose and you wouldn't be classed as rich, because as we all know:

"To me, rich is when you can afford to gift your children cars for their 18th and deposits on their first flats. We'll never be able to do that. When did being middle class become such hard work???"

frgr It is a shame that your sister's and your own sexual predilictions veer towards the lower classes because it has led to 'bad' marriages.

If on the other hand, you had a penchant for 'posh' people, like moi, you may have made better choices in life and been - also like myself - safely esconsed in a Mansion in a leafy part of Surrey.

The only real blight on my day is when I come across 'poor' people, but thankfully this is limited as I can spend my days doing what I enjoy rather than working for a living.

As a divorce is probably out of the question, the only advice I can offer you is, get yourself a job cleaning. You will earn far more and will be able to have a nose around all those lovely houses and see how the 'real MNs' live.

i agree with conniedescending's comment about with the struggling rich it can imply the poor who think they're doing ok feel a bit poop about it all. my household income is less than £10k pa (hopefully the new tax year has been better, the recession hit hard) we claim no housing/ council tax benefits, one child is in nursery the other school (including afer school club), im in full time uni of which i have not recieved my student loans yet :( we do however get working tax and child tax credit and when it finally gets paid we will have a percentage of childcare paid for (at the moment we owe the nursery just short of £2k in fees) but i find that we manage perfctley fine, we can not afford to go on holiday but we have enough luxuries (new sofa, nice tv etc, ps not bragging just making a point)although this for us is down to who you know, completely legal i'll add nothing bent :o (friends/ family with work discounts).

i have always thought my family were lucky and comfortably happy now i just feel shit after reading this thread :( although on a plus side when i finish uni i'll be about 3 times better off, then i can complain about struggling.

Actually it depends, if you're on £70k (one income) per year and have six children, live in a nie area and used to earn £100k it's perfectly reasonable to be struggling.

It's all relavant surely? People earning 70k can struggle as much as anyone.

They would probably have higher than average mortgage payments, cars to run etc and if they have to pay maintenance and debts....that's a huge chunk of that money gone.

I earn 16k for 20 hours per week, dh earns 48k. we live in east anglia. We run 2 cars but won't be going on holiday this year as i'll be on mat leave (boo hoo I hear you cry!)

We earn enough combined to save a bit each month but honestly, we aren't rich. I'm not moaning, i know we are lucky but it's taken us a good few years to get to this point. This is our reality, please don't have a go just because it isn't yours.

No - I think that the overlap between MN and Net mums is actually increasing - I thin k that MN is a lot less samey and more than ever, different things to different people