... to think that most MNers live in a bubble?

[frgr]

Seriously, the amount of times I read on here about "oh we earn 70k a year but we're really struggle to provide for little Jacob's polo lessons this year" (or some other such shite).

In real life, the average income of my family and friends is probably circa the national average. I know for a fact that my BIL is on around £6/hr and works 42 hours a week, I know that my best friend's total family income is about 22k because she was talking about mortgages a month ago... I'm talking about hard working people who go out come rain or shine and do their day's work, to provide for their families.... and then I log on here and find out MNers are posting trivial shit about being unable to afford XYZ and feeling hard done by on their incomes of "only" 3x the national average.

I don't know if I've become more sensitive to this crap since starting re-posting on here last year (after a break of about 3 years), but it seems to me that certain members of MN are totally and utterly oblivious as to what the average family is having to endure during this recession.

It's fucking unbelievable, it really is.

In your opinion, why are so many MNers out of touch with reality? Does this site cater to a different class than me? Are avg MNers just generally deluded - do I even belong here any more, with our 21k combined income, worrying about where the next school trip fee is coming from despite the fact that both of us work?

Christ.

The value of your ex may go down as well as up though, I know somebody who was happily married for love to a man who worked hard and did well for himself. He left her for a younger model and yes he's bought her a house for the children to live in, a third of the value of his, he also due to being self employed pays £5 a week maintenance for three children as he reinvests all the money into a business and so she can't have any of it.

'The value of your ex may go down as well as up though'

One of the best lines I've read on MN

You can benchmark your ex against an industry index and see how he fares at any point.

Interesting News Article on the topics being addressed here.

"I mentioned the handmade shirts earlier. Not only is this a problem for our austerity measures, it's not particularly good for the environment. Aforementioned husband - let's call him chief spending officer - has to have his shirts handmade. Not even Prada is good enough anymore. Can't recall why. And naturally the way I wash and the way our cleaner (still there at the moment, though watch this space given austerity measures) irons these shirts is unacceptable.

So .... twice a week a lovely lady drives her van around to our house, rings the bell and collects a (plastic) bag full of dirty shirts. On the second visit she drives her van back to the house, with clean shirts in a (new plastic) bag, each shirt duly washed, folded (around a new cardboard frame), and with little (plastic) hooks to keep it in place. And each placed in a celophone bag to protect it from the (often severe in East London) elements. (Monday to Friday one of these bags, along with hooks and cardboard appears by the front door ready for me to put in the recycling bin).

Sounds lovely doesn't it? All is not perfect at present because the people who operate whatever cleaning equipment they have keep putting the wrong size bits of (plastic) straighteners into the wing collars. Chief spending officer goes mad. "Leees (that's me) ... I must have told them a thousand times (he is prone to exaggerate a little) .... can you tell them about these Bl**&y wing collars!"

Now you might think that for both green and economic reasons this might be the first thing to go as I review our weekly budget. Not on your life. You don't know how important a well pressed shirt is to the smooth running of our lives - which is extremely dependent on keeping chief spending officer happy."

Another world!

"Mr Unwin is understood to be acutely embarrassed by the disclosures and she has now agreed to take down the blog.

Speaking from their imposing current home in east London - the new property is still being renovated - Mrs Unwin admitted that she had underestimated the reach of the internet.

"It doesn't look good does it?? she said.

?My husband has quite a big job at PwC, it was never meant to be taken literally. "

I will look him up and report back.....

Bascially this is what happens if you let your wife become a housewife or you marry under you to someone who doesn't earn what you do - she has so little to do she discloses details of your private lfe on line. Had he mnarried a fellow PwC partner things would have been a lot better.

If I have the right man looks like he might have been at Terra Firma before that too

blogs.ft.com/management/2010/03/12/stirrings-in-the-consultancy-world/?infernofullcomment=1&SID=google and he's writing about austerity for clients.

Can't find his pay but this looks like him
www.ukmediacentre.pwc.com/content/detail.aspx?releaseid=3245&newsareaid=2

Some folk are just wrapped up in their own little world. I don't think it matters about income bracket, it's attitude. I don't want to hear anyone moaning about their inability to afford foreign holidays, regardless of their income. But if it's clear I'm not going to like it, I don't read it or I stop when it becomes apparent. :)

Xenia but who would be home to take delivery of the hademade shirts being delivered back in plastic wrapping in (gosh) the wrong size clips?

You wouldn't get that with a career wife. ;)

Can you imagine - if they were both career driven, they might both 'need' handmade shirts!!

I think he needs a SAHW to keep him grounded and generally to make sure he doesn't get too out of touch reality. Sounds like she might have made her point very effectively if he is embarrassed.

So he should be!

Fine to have lots of money, equally fine to spend it on whatever you like. He seems to be paying for a small army of help too - jobs for other people so great. What isn't really right is telling people how to put in place austerity measures when he doesn't understand that his reality is much different to everybody elses. His advice must just be a formula to him.

Even worse, I can imagine somebody in his position advising others who are having a hard time and having to make cuts and him having no respect or looking down his nose at them. Empathy is lacking I think.

Have agree with some of the Telegraph comments. If you want to save money in hard times, don't go to PwC, got to a local firm!

When we *were8 both career driven in the past we argues like anything; Dh worked nights (related to pres industry so overnight printing / distribution / etc compulsory); I worked days and whenever anythingc ame up we would BOTH want to be the one one in opn the meeting and the other picking up from childcare.

I do not remember those days with any fondness; if we'd kept at it another five years we could have afforded 24 hour help maybe but we'd sure as heck have been divorced.

We're both equally driven in our ownays but our paths are a lot more complimentary now.

I don't think many couples would survive with 2 high flying careers and children. Something would have to give eventually. I know some manage, at least for a while, but not many.

And I am not talking about couples where both work full time either - there are plenty of those who make it work but they won't be as driven, it is just a job.

If you have 2 major careers, involving long hours and/or lots of travel and children, your partner is always going to come a long way down the list of priorities and it won't do the relationship any good imho.

Niece - whilst DH and I are not 'high flyers' we are both in very stressful jobs and work long hours. We also have a DD.

I wont lie and say it's easy but it can be done -it takes a lot of planning and thought and a real appreciation for each other though. Oh and a realistic expectation of what's ahead.

I am currently working on a project that has me in the office or on a client site at least 11 hours a day ( I also have a 1hr commute each way) DH is a Lawyer and has a bit more flexibility than me and can leave the office earlier but then logs on at home and works for hours once DD is in bed.

It's hard and there are times when we are both so damn tired we snap at each other BUT on the whole the reason I think it works well for us is that we talk a lot and mostly because DH is just the nicest guy and puts up with me...

Once the project I am working on finishes my hours will be more manageable at the office and I will delegate the next one to someone else to give me a good few months of 9-5 ( luckily I have the option to do this).

As for DD we live for the weekends and every weekend is fun,fun, fun whether we are dead tired or not (coffee helps). We love spending time as a family and feel a bit like ships passing in the night during the week but we accept it as our normal.

Dragon it sounds as if you have a good balance

With me a lot of the problem was that I was fundraising for a big cancer charity adn I was forever geting called at weekends or night times; actually the job after (more in the field) was similar- can remember a lot of 11pm phone calls.

And DH would forever be called in for cover, and had a commute that meant he was out 6 - 10.... get home at ten, and your wife is taking alls from someone that their ex is trying to break in.... and you're both shattered as well.... nightmarish.

I don't know how you did it Peachy - you both must have been shattered.

About 10 years ago I had a job where my boss thought nothing of calling me at all hours and 20 times a day when we were on holiday...luckily I was offered something else and moved on.

I don't know about you but I really appreciate my time off now and have even been known to take an odd days annual leave (1 or 2 a year not loads) with DH and sneak back to bed after dropping DD at school and nap and watch telly all day - shocking isn't it!!

Yes, it's only in the non sexist marriages it seems to help where no one is thanking a man for tolerating a wife working 12 hours if that wouldnt' happen the other way about.

In some ways if you both have good careers life is easier - you can buy in cleaning services, tend to have more money and power, can decide your working hours and the like. If you're a tiny cog at the bottom of a wheel it can be a lot harder.

Wow the phrase marrying under you. I don't think I have ever heard anyone say that before. Only read it in novels published before ww2.

I am now picturing xenia as lady catherine de burgh.

ROFL I have met him. He is as he sounds. Never met the wife. She sounds like a total twit.

'In some ways if you both have good careers life is easier - you can buy in cleaning services, tend to have more money and power, can decide your working hours and the like. If you're a tiny cog at the bottom of a wheel it can be a lot harder.'

true but it takes time to get up to that; we had 2 boys before I hit a decent job.

Nopwadays things are different- we both slog but differently. DH is a FT student and self employed; I am starting up self employed (from 11st feb anyway), a student and a carer. We buld us time in even though it's grabbed- a coffee at 11am, that sort of thing. And whilst we both like our hobbies we have made a pact to prioritise the one we both enjoy (and that does have some social life and good friends attached) and the odler 2 join in somewhat now. It makes it easier.

We don't have a sexist marriage, we've both been breadwinner and both been SAMP. Our job choices now both lend themselves to being absed from home as well but mine is somewhat m,ore flexible- making appts etc rather than retail (Dh's) when he just sells whren he can and has a 24 hr turn around so has to be more immediate in his response.

It should allow us to balance things; that is good.

Boffinmum I agree with much of what you've said. I am interested in the area of intelligence and ability, I find so many don't believe in the concept of expandable minds, you are either low, medium or high ability and that's set in concrete.

There are reasons for these robust views about fixed intelligence. The psychological reason for clinging on to a fixed concept of ability is that it's human nature to attribute stable characteristics to other people on the basis of limited information.

We see someone behave a few times in a certain way and infer that they are 'mean spirited', 'business minded', 'clever', 'dim'; little Johnny sold the stickers to everyone at school at an inflated price he's got an 'entrepreneurial spirit'. When we look at ourselves we take more into account and are more forgiving, we shouted because we were angry which was justifiable etc.

We desire to find people predictable and we so underestimate how variable they are. Psychologists have a term for this apparently, the 'fundamental attribution error'.

It's also human nature to make order out of a seething mass of personalities and interactions so we like to reduce things down to a few salient characteristics by using ability attributions. 'Johnny's a born salesmen', 'Robert's a rogue - it's in his genes', 'Sarah's helpful but very average' and so on.

Paraphrasing Guy Claxton in part, above.

Yes Cortina , that's true and I am sure parents do it within families too - she is the X one, he is the Y one and that then becomes self perpetuating in a way, although I expect most of us try to work against it.

Most women marry someone who earns more and is a bit older or is more clever. It is one reason for the pay gap. Because if Jill eanrs £10k a year and only just graduated and Jim is 10 years older and on £100k it's p retty easy to see who will give up work if one has to to keep house. Whereas if Jill earns £100k and Jim £10k they might well swap. As long as women seek slightly older and slightly better partners (the marrying up in a sense) then the pay gap and women's chained to sinks life will continue.

Thats probably true xenia, the last paragraph

DH and I earned matching salaries when we met; he is 2 years older but had a career change. Since meeting we have put ourselves through Uni in very different areas and nothing about the power relationship that existed initially has remained.

We're as equal as any couple I know. but then so were my parents for their era- Mum gave up work medically when she had me but has a small collection of awards for her work before then; Dad similarly. And although their paths changed the power didn't.

Cortina, it's standard stuff in sociology too. For example, Hargreaves and Becker both looked into how teachers 'type' pupils when they first get to know them, and mapped out some of the speculation that goes on as pupils are triaged and categorised. Both studies found a clear relationship between social class and (often unfounded) assumptions about academic ability or potential attainment levels. I've also written about teacher talk in staffrooms and so on (as have others) and it's clear that a lot of observations are essentially subjective, and have more to do with the speaker seeking to use the same kind of social grammar as the listener, than being factual reports of children's traits or capabilities.

So in a Parisian world where women are perpectually worried about their appearance, being dumped for a younger model and shafted by the notoriously sexist French divorce system, any interaction discussing little boys playing kiss chase in the playground runs the risk of being coloured by concerns about this, rather than seeing the attention seeking behaviour as something relating to wanting to be taken notice of, rather than destructively sexual ...