... to think that most MNers live in a bubble?

[frgr]

Seriously, the amount of times I read on here about "oh we earn 70k a year but we're really struggle to provide for little Jacob's polo lessons this year" (or some other such shite).

In real life, the average income of my family and friends is probably circa the national average. I know for a fact that my BIL is on around £6/hr and works 42 hours a week, I know that my best friend's total family income is about 22k because she was talking about mortgages a month ago... I'm talking about hard working people who go out come rain or shine and do their day's work, to provide for their families.... and then I log on here and find out MNers are posting trivial shit about being unable to afford XYZ and feeling hard done by on their incomes of "only" 3x the national average.

I don't know if I've become more sensitive to this crap since starting re-posting on here last year (after a break of about 3 years), but it seems to me that certain members of MN are totally and utterly oblivious as to what the average family is having to endure during this recession.

It's fucking unbelievable, it really is.

In your opinion, why are so many MNers out of touch with reality? Does this site cater to a different class than me? Are avg MNers just generally deluded - do I even belong here any more, with our 21k combined income, worrying about where the next school trip fee is coming from despite the fact that both of us work?

Christ.

Dragonhead, the amounts are being frozen, or only getting a tiny increase. The over all plan being to reduce the amount spent on TC.

Xenia - I don't always agree with you but I do today.

Very good point that if you earn £70k more than £20k, there's no way you would have an extra £50k to show for it...

Now, what could I market on commision for you? Cos if it's Pampered Chef shite or Avon, I AIN'T interested...

"And this city is the second most expensive in england."

really ??

When people claim to live on £20,000 or £30,000 a year or less, then that's not really true is it?

If it is, how come families earning £50,000 or whatever it is, can claim tax credits or benefits of some sort?

If you take away the supplementary income support then the difference in actual money in the bank to spend between a family living on £20,000 and £50,000 (those are both hypothetical amounts, I don't know the actual sums) isn't really all that much. To be fair. Because the tax credits system and housing benefits system is designed to bolster the wages of the low-paid to a reasonable level.

There obviously is a gap. Its that weird hinterland between working poor and working just about managing to pay for everything. It depends on circumstances and the number of people in a family but yet it does exist.

Very good posts from bibbitybobbity and nonno.

The competitive poverty thing is really tiresome. If you are earning a low wage, you are eligible for all sorts of top ups which make a difference to how much you live on in real terms which is actually what counts.

I'm sure I've told this story before on MN. I am a Deputy Head Teacher, and I recall very clearly the time I had to have a tooth extracted rather than the root canal treatment recommended because I couldn't afford it, while during the same fortnight, one of my part time office staff had a whole load of dental treatment for free, because she worked only part time and was eligible for free treatment.

That's just one example; other people will be able to cite many more. It's just utter rubbish to suggest that everyone under a certain income is living in dire poverty and everyone over a certain income is rolling in it.

I'm certainly not complaining about my salary, but I think it's a strange state of affairs when you can be unemployed or work only part time and be better off than someone who works more hours. Not only strange, but also unsustainable, which is why things are changing.

Just saying even if you do have a high income it means you are contributing more (in cash terms) to society. And even if you do earn more than 70k you may have significant debts (student/a failed business/ridiculous mortgage/parent to support) and thus 70k is not a rosy picture after all.

Also many of the "mega-rich" people in the UK (Hedge Funds/Bankers/footballers) are now being paid in Switzerland & other countries (tax dodge) due to v high tax in UK. Hence this tax money worth billions is no longer helping support our population (benefits / tax credits etc.) So more banks are going this way which means G will have to increase tax to make up difference - what a fucking mess!Result is the general public has to face record breaking petrol prices and VAT increases!!!

We earn 21k combined before tax and NIand we dont get hb or benefits. We get a little towards childcare but thats it. I know literally loads of people in the same situation as me

I have always been under the impression that MNers come from a wide background.

Being a high earner is not down to hard work alone. You need luck too,although I do think high earners do work hard.

I earn 8K a year, I would be a lot better off on £20k

Dickens said a lot of shit, Xenia. Which might be why you like him

I wouldn't say £70k was some kind of cut-off, though I know why it's being used today.... but I do agree there is a bubble on Mumsnet.

actually with a 20% deposit, 3 children and no other debt, you could get a house for £250k and pay the moving costs - on about 50k pa.

seehere

you could probably manage it on a lower salary with a higher inital equity stake.

I think we are well off. We earn around £50k a year combined. I think the issue here is that, as others have said, people get used to a certain lifestyle and think they are badly off in comparison. In my case well off means I only shit myself about the bill for the school residential trip, not the one to the pantomime. And I no longer, at the end of the month, seriously consider drinking the 14 year old ginger wine my nan gave me

violethill, I find you post really insulting - "competetive poverty"?? - do you really have such little clue about the world that people live in? Some people really do live hand to mouth, despite the 'top ups' you cite.

Look all over MN and you'll see people from every stage of the income ladder. I think I see it most starkly in the Style and Beauty thread! People will ask for advice and then give a budget for an outfit, and those budgets run from Primark to Prada. We're relatively well off at the moment but I couldn't spend £300 on a coat. It takes all sorts.

"Being a high earner is not down to hard work alone. You need luck too,although I do think high earners do work hard."

• It may be in part down to 'luck' but tbh to a large extent its down to choices.The reason we are comfortably off is mainly down to studying hard (through school and University) being prepared to carry on working right through while our children were young (even when childcare was 50% of our take home pay) and being prepared to move to new areas, rather than tying ourselves geographically to one location. I think you'll find for most people on good incomes, it's a similar story. And usually there have been tough times along the way. Xenia, for instance, was back at work two weeks after giving birth. Not everyone wants to make those same choices, which is fine, but then you shouldn't resent those who do. I've seen many women on MN saying they won't go out to work if they are only going to break even on childcare. Fine - but don't resent it when you find that others may have overtaken you in the workplace because they chose differently. If you want to have 4,5,6 kids, and find you're hard up as a result - fine. But don't complain about the choice you made.

And yes, I know some people work damn hard and still never earn much, or face some tragedy in their life which totally upends their plans, but for the majority of people, there is a large element of choice about the careers we go into, how many hours a week we work, whether we take minimum ML or several years off.

There seems to be a huge resentment towards many people who are comfortably off - as if we've all been born with some special privilege. Not at all. Very ordinary background here, in fact, distinctly dodgy comprehensive school and certainly no family money.

Riven - I disagree that you would be able to afford school fees if your income magically went up £50k. The extra money would probably lead to more expenses and your benefits would be reduced. You would buy your DD a new wheelchair by the sounds of it and you spend more on other things that made your life more comfortable and why shouldn't you? Your money, you can do what you like obviously - that applies no matter what your income is.

After tax and NI an extra £50k only amounts to just enough to pay for those extra school fees for 2 children (and you stand no chance at all if you have more children than that on £70k). Most people would not, in this hypothetical situation spend an extra £50k on school fees - they would spend it on food, clothing, housing and transport and generally upgrading their lives (for want of a better word) before they paid school fees. They are not that easily affordable on £70k.

Even assuming you wanted to pay the school fees in the first place!!

:o at Dickens being quoted in support of an essentially 'the poor deserve it' post. He's positively spinning in his grave.

I'm going to ask a genuine question and I expect to be flamed for it but I've got to ask.

There was a calculator thingy on one of the threads in Chat that compares your income to the rest of the UK - I was shocked to see DH and I have a joint income that is higher than 99% of the UK population. Why was I shocked? Because I think of us as having a very average incmoe -in fact if pushed I would have said we were at the lower end of our peer group. So you could say I;ve had a bit of an eye opening.

So my question is this - why is there such a gap? Is it choice? Is it upbringing? Is it luck?

The reason I ask is that I left school with no real qualifications and had no parental funding or help and if I'm honest have no real skills ( other than I talk a lot and am pretty good with people) yet I've done ok. I've always thought it was down to hard work but I am absolutely convinced there are people who are struggling who work bloody hard too....

It just doesn't seem fair...

Oops - Violethill seems to have answered my question x-post

Again (after posting and being ignored) what the hell would this country be without high earners?!

Due to hard work DH has own business and earns over 100K but three years ago earned less than 10K...........so we have many debts to repay, family to support and still the never ending student debts to add to other debts.

In summary, yes we do earn over 70k, most of which goes in taxes the rest in debts, no we do not feel lucky or wealthy or in this BUBBLE - feel quite cross about this whole fucking thread!

The huge gap in salaries has occured over a number of years (I heard that is was based on US-style salaries being brought in?). The gap between rich and poor didn't used to be so huge. Many poor people also work very hard and many rich people sit on their arses and do jack shit.

oops my post should read wide range of backgrounds.

Violethill, as a Deputy Head you should know a bit about social and educational poverty. Your choices were half-chance and so are everyone else's.

The fact that you went to a comp or that your Daddy didn't give you a Trust Fund doesn't reduce the very real impact of socioeconomic disadvantage on the choices of many.

Try being a Deputy Head in any inner-city, multiethnic comprehensive and say that high incomes are a "choice" for the "majority". I am giving you the benefit of the doubt that you don't, as I can't imagine anyone who has worked in this context would be so smug about the immense privilege of having realised the importance of education at an early age.

Ah but if you questioned how people on benefits spent their cash and argued that wine and tobacco are luxuries then that would be right wing bollocks and you'd get jumped on.

It's perfectly fine to scrutinise the spending of those who earn there money though and to make value judgements.