thinking owning a house is a waste of time, as it just gets takenoff you when you get old/put in ahome

[ohnanaWHATSMYNAMEohnana]

one of my aunts has had to go into a care home, serious dementia needs fulltime help

but everything shes worked for and saved for looks liek it will be taken from her.

But you've just said it Lady Biscuit.

There may be some people paying to be in the shit ones

I don't believe someone should lose their house to receive an adequate standard of care that is available to somone with no asset to sell. Everyone should be entitiled to quality care, but as has been pointed out, there are good homes and not so good homes. If you are forced to sell your house, you should be in one of the better homes, with your own bathroom and the like.

But having that house doesn't give you choice. It gets taken whether you like it or not, and if the house isn't worth enough to get you into one of the nicer homes, you're screwed from every direction. That's the bit I object to the most. If having your housesold from under you would buy you something better than the very basic state care, then fine. But quite often it doesn't.

And before anyone accuses me yet again of saying that non homeowners don't deseve a good standard of care, that's not what I'm saying at all. It would be lovely if all care homes were fantastic environments available to everyone, but it's not going to happen is it?

Someone else suggested that everone pays a lump sum regardless of whether they need it or not, or maybe there couldbe some sort of insurance available. I don't know how it could be funded, that's why I'm not a politician, but I do still think it's unfair for two people to be in exactly the same home, recieving the same level of care, when one has to lose everything they own and one doesn't.

Quite right curly

how to pay? Nobody is even starting.from the principle of being fair to the old dears. Now that would be a start.

Very few people actually get 'free' care-everyone has to pay a contribution unless they are fully health funded or sectioned under the mental health act. I financially assess residents and let them or their families know what needs to be paid towards the care.
Councils offer an interest free loan for people who are selling their house to pay for care. My gran is lucky enough to have my uncle lending her the money instead so that she can stay in the hideously expensive lovely care home where she lives.
It's not difficult to get round the rules, a bit of advanced planning and getting deeds transferred years in advance will usually stop us being able to include a house in the assessment; as long as it's done before someone shows signs of needing care.

You just need to give your house to your children 7 years before you need care. Or give them the bulk of your money and move into a one bedroom flat (which is what I'm going to do).

My DS isn't going to inherit a house but he might inherit a deposit for a house and a contribution to paying off his university debts and I want to provide that for him.

It's not 7 years for the financial assessments, think that's a tax thing? For us we have to be able to prove that it was done to avoid care fees, which is difficult to do unless someone was already having some sort of help when it was done. This is all well and good if it's the elderly person's decision but I have seen so many families who are ripping their relatives off and sod all can be done about it! (using the money to pay off their own debts 'gifting' themselves money etc)

If you own your own home and it has to be sold you can go into that beautiful home of your choice. The local authority will put a hold over the property and once it is sold they claw their money back. The person has a choice where they go! However, if they are in that "beautiful home" and their capital goes below the threshold and the local council become involved, they will only pay up to their own fees. An example would be, the home charges £ 600 a week, the local authority will only pay up to £ 500, a third party top up will be required from a friend/family or charity, if not the person will have to leave that home and go to a home that accepts the local authorities rates. Believe me that loving, gorgeous home who treated your relative for several years will have not give it any second thought of asking them to leave if they cannot pay that top up fee. Also the homes have a star rating and the local auth will not fund someone in a low star home. I found some of the best homes to be the basic standard ones usually in a busy area where the person can look out the window to see a hive of activity, kids going to school, shops, market etc. There is only so long one can look out a lovely view, just something to consider.....

I have to say I do find it very uncomfortable people thinking that one should have better care because they have more money, this is how it is coming across...

Thankyou pumpster and space for info x

space - I'm not sure it's better care, it's just nicer. It's like if you have private treatment rather than NHS. I had private healthcare in my last job and had to use it for any treatment. The room I was given was lovely, en suite bathroom, flat screen multichannel telly, beautiful food. The actual care was no different to the NHS, except the staff were less overworked

Just to add - my friend had to put her mum into care a few years ago and they didn't choose the most expensive home, they chose the one that best met their mum's needs. Expensive doesn't always mean best (as is the case with lots of things)

That's interesting Pumpster, thanks.

Interesting opinions all round here - mostly (I guess) from people that haven't yet had to face this ordeal with their loved ones....

Let me say that I wish my mother had committed a crime a couple of years and have been placed in prison.... that way she would be well looked after & have the best of NHS treatment and mostly importantly funded for her ill health.

My mother is a living corpse - she can do nothing for her herself, she lies in a bed - full stop... she has no quality of life - she is not mobile, cannot communicate, doubly incontinent, unable to be moved, can't hear properly, can't see and issues one word responses to each and every question etc etc blah blah blah. All of these are assumed as she is just to frail to be sent for testing on MRI, CAT, opticians, hearing etc etc

My Mother's house was sold long ago to fund her care. She was frugal in life and used to save every penny (embarrassing so when we kids ? but she had her own song sheet) - as the Government of the time told her to do and was led to believe that she would be supported in her old age ? she fulfilled her part of the bargain ? what happened to theirs....

Guess What - that rainy day came - she (we as she is no longer competent) now have the luxury of paying of £1200.00 a week for her care.... The care that she receives is 1st class and the nurses/care workers excellent... so I have no complaint there...

Apparently she has no health needs despite having undergone two brain operations... and various "checklists" by the local PCT. She now weighs probably less than 5/6 stone - 4 stone at a push - and she was one larger than life lady ? why are these genes the only ones that truly passed down ????

She had had various ?checklists? from the the local PCT done - according to them she is dancing around and clucking... if only - the heartless bastards.. she can just about breathe unaided and that?s all.

You know what I think - this system stinks... She has spent over £200,000 so far for her care - she is sick and has been sick since she had her brain operations... but according the the NHS and their scoring system she is fine and she has only ?personal needs?....

So my biggest dilemma now is - her money is due to run out within the next 6-10 months - will they try to move her to a cheaper Nursing Home when they have to pay ? or will they kill her on route ???

If I wheel her out of the Nursing Home ? now she will be homeless with nothing.

I love my Mum and want her back ......

"You just need to give your house to your children 7 years before you need care."

not sure where you got this idea but it is several years out of date - what you are talking about is deprivation of assets.

i cannot understand why people think they shouldn't pay for their own care if they can afford to do so. the state cannot afford to fund care for everyone who needs it - taxes would have to rise astronomically to fund this.

i am 39 and know that if i or dh ever need care then we will have to pay for it. i am in the fortunate position of not having to rely on state benefits to live; i pay tax into a system that supports those who need support - it is not a case of 'i've paid in for x years so i am entitled'.

my house is an asset. inheritance is not a birthright.

Sorry about that, that's what my grandmother has done so assumed that was still correct (although she is still living in her own home and is 100).

Surely I am entitled to move out of my house and into a smaller flat and give the profits from the sale to my DS if I wish? How can anyone prove that's deprivation of assets?

I'm perfectly happy to pay for my care for a few years but I have no intention of being in a nursing home for decades. There are ways to avoid it

Trident, I am sorry your having such a bad time and your situation sounds very upsetting. I can totally understand the frustrations around what is health care and social care, the area is so woolly. Maybe someone with a law background maybe able to assist here, but could you use the Human Rights Act for her to stay in the home? Moving a person, who requires nursing a home, from one home to another in older age, your right, is not a good move for them at all and their health often declines further. I would also ask, how can a home charge that amount on a weekly basis, that is an unbelievable amount, that could be another route we could go down, people making a lot of money out of vulnerable peoples situations.

Ceres, if that is possible what your going to do, make the most of it now because under this government the finance department in authorities will become even more stringent because they have to due!

I guess for everyone it is easy to debate this when your not affected by it but once it becomes personal the situation changes a little.

I know of a person who claimed her partner didn't live with her to get tax credits and then used the money to send her child to private school. Now this is a situation which I think is outrageous !!!!

Trident, your story is very sad.

However this renaming of health issues as social issues is NOT unusual and is a big get-out clause for local authorities. Space -- don't pretend it's such an unusual case it requires the intervention of Human Rights Law. It happens all the time and is simply discrimination against elderly people. Anyone who goes along with house theft for health care condones it.

The thing is that most people who own their own home have taken on a huge burden by way of a mortgage, yes, even when house prices were lower. People with mortgages have had to work whatever their circumstances as if they don't they may lose the roof over their head. Not so with renting.

I was in the inenviable position of becoming a single parent with a mortgage and wasn't a high earner. I could have sold the property, hidden the equity for a rainy day,(many people I know have) asked the council to house me and lived on HB, IS for x no. of years. I would have had the same income as working full time. I chose instead to work and keep my house. I wish the asset to be there for my child when I die, not to be taken to pay for my care, when it would be provided free of charge had I gone down the former scenerio.

My parents owned a home, I do and I want my DC to be able to, which might not be possible until after I die. Wealth should stay in a family, where possible.

It's been debated, that this system is flawed so I don't understand why people think it is so clear cut and fair.

I was tremendously aggressive there, Space. I really don't think it was necessary.

trident - sorry I didn't see your post earlier. God that sounds horrible for you and your mum. How heartbreaking :(

Trident - the local authority can only move your mother to a cheaper home if when they carry out an assessment they identify that her needs can be met in another (cheaper)home. Given what you have said about her health and the amount of time she has been there it seems highly unlikely that they could assess her in this way. If they do you need to request a medical assessment that asks if it would be detrimental to her health and well-being to move.

The authority will then have to cough up the full costs as it is unlawful for them to have a maximum they will pay for a home. They have something called their 'usual costs' ie what they usually will pay for someone with similar needs but they have to have some discretion with it.

If they do try to move her then I would urge you to submit a formal complaint to the Council and then take the matter to the Local Government Ombudsman.

Age UK have some excellent leaflets about these sort of issues and anybody concerned should have a look.

Furthermore it is the PCT that makes decisions about whether somebody has health care needs and is entitled to continuuing health care funding (CHC) ie free care. The local authority aren't the ones saying its social care not health as they cant make that decision. My experience with CHC funding panels is that you have to really push if you want the funding. Its all about the way the form is completed. If you think your mother is entitled to CHC funding then appeal the decision and keep fighting it.

And to clarify a point the Council can't force somebody to sell their home and neither can they sell it from underneath them. If somebody has been assessed as needing to make a contribution to their care costs then that person can pay the fees any way they wish. This may mean selling the home but there are other options such as renting the home and using rental income to pay the fees. If fees aren't being paid then the Council is likely to place a charge on the property to recoup when it is sold.

The rules about the treatment of property in finacial assessments are quite complex and there are grey areas so i would urge people to look properly at the regulations to check what is being done is appropriate because mistakes do happen. They are are called Charging for residential accommodation guidance (CRAG).

Connie is correct, councils can only force a sale of a property with a court order, this is done rarely if a vast amount is owed and there are no signs of repayment and the person has usually died. Paying over the normal cost is avoided by councils and negotiation with the home is attempted, or a top up from the family is asked for where possible. Councils cannot force someone to move but they can refuse to fund.

blimey eve since when was renting free?

I didn't say renting was free, it can work out more expensive in the long term. I said that in the event of not being able to work/choosing not to, rent would be covered by housing benefit. Whereas if you have a mortgage you have to work or lose the house.

Sorry if that isn't correct or it read as something else.

trident - my gran's house will only fund 2 years of home fees (her home is £1000 per week).

When my mum was looking at homes they each had a minimum number of years you must be able to self-fund before the council took over. Most places were one or two years, although the one they originally hoped her to move to was 4 years.

After the minimum period for self-funding is past, if the resident can no longer self-fund then the council takes over at its standard rate. Crucially though, the resident is entitled to stay in that home, in their original room (so no moving them to a broom cupboard in the basement..) for the rest of their life.

It was made clear to my mum that the high fees subsidised the care of those no longer self-funding, just as the fees of others would subsidise my gran's care if she lives that long.

This seems to be standard with care homes in this area (Edinburgh) and the situation was the same when my paternal grandparents moved into a home in the West of Scotland over 10 years ago. They also outlived their ability to self-fund but the council paid their fees after that at a lower rate and there was no question of them being moved.

It's an important question to ask the manager of your mother's home. Hopefully they'll put your fears at rest, if not then you'll have time to plan/approach your MP etc. I hope it works out for you.

Suzi really £52,000 fees? Think I would be looking at paying for care in the home at those rates. Probably not suitable but that's a huge amount of money. If they didn't charge such amounts and expect people to subsidies others then the state wouldn't need to pay so much. It doesn't sound right.