To be shocked 90% of Down's babies are aborted?

[Strictly]

I was jut reading this sorry, yes it's from the DM!

and then did a little Googling and it turns out 91% of people told their baby has DS will have an abortion...

I'm just astounded it's so high. I'm not making a judgment on the idea people might abort, but am very shocked that it seems almost universal to abort if told the baby has Down's.

I wonder what it is about that particular condition that 91% of people feel they could not live with? The rates for abortions of Cerebral Palsy babies for example is nowhere near as high. Is it just that Down's is easy to detect so the majority of people actually get the chance to decide?

wannaBe I am disabled too. That's why I know that I can only offer so much care. And I'd have to take that into account. I am limited in what I can do, and as such, certain disabilities would need more help than was physically possible. And if I cannot properly look after a child I think it would be crueller to have it.

"Really excellent post expat, exactly what I would have liked to say but am not so articulate."

Or possibly you are too sensitive and less harshly dogmatic?

wannabe- i also have a lifelong limiting condition, my ds might have it but i never considered termination. the difference is he can life with this without help.

"Why all the fucking faces? It's not your body, not your child, not your decision, not your life. "

What a peculiar comment.

Why don't you go on to a thread about, oh I dunno, trying to think of something current, people dying in the floods in Brisbane and repeat it? Let us know how you get on.

Few people choose a termination without a degree of sadness. Anyone who has got so far as to have antenatal testing presumably wanted their child at some point, so it is fair to say that 99% of people having a termination due to abnormality feel sad about it, and mourn "what might have been." Why is it ridiculous to feel sad for the loss of a life and for the heartbreak of the parents?

wannBe, you have to realise that people decide for themselves, for their own futures. Nobody is talking about retrspectively saying all disabled people should have been aborted.

expatinscotland Fri 14-Jan-11 11:35:24
"these people wanted a baby, they got pregnant, but are not having a baby. think how you would feel if it was you. spare a thought for them."

And they got one to have. But chose otherwise.

That's the bottom line.

I understand peoples' reasoning behind it.

It's a free country, they're free to make that choice.

But it's because the baby they got doesn't fit their ideal.

I just hope people who make this choice don't then have a child with a condition that can't be diagnosed antenatally, or go on to develop a horrendous condition like mental health problems or addiction struggles later on when it's too late to decide it's curtains for them.

I'm not surprised, however.

well said Expat

I don't believe that most babies with downs die in utero or shortly after birth. If this is the case then why is there no evidence to back that up.

I do, however, believe that so-called medical experts would make these types of claims to a mother in order to persuade her that a termination was the best course of action for her.

I'm not shocked but YANBU. My cousin was born with downs syndrome. The amount of care he needed as a baby/ child and now a teenager is phenomenal. He attends a sn school, cannot use the toilet, talk, does not understand danger and has to be supervised 100% of the time. My aunt and her family have had to give up their lives entirely to care for him.
He doesn't have any of the health problems associated with downs syndrome, such as heart issues so in that way he is one of the lucky ones.

"I just hope people who make this choice don't then have a child with a condition that can't be diagnosed antenatally, or go on to develop a horrendous condition like mental health problems or addiction struggles later on when it's too late to decide it's curtains for them."

I know that any child I have has a high chance of mental health problems. So I'll do anything within my power to reduce the amount of other problems they may face.

buzz - "why do people need to have disabled babies? For what purpose? (genuine question)"

why indeed - why do people need to have babies at all?

why bother saving people from accidents/gun shots/afghanistan blasts when they going to end up disabled?

fact is: people have babies - and a proportion will go onto
-get disabled at birth eg CP due to bad birth/bnegligence whatever
-have a condition not diagnosable prenatally like my DS (so there was no choice to terminate anyway) - the test to find his condition is not yet offered routinely as is v expensive - tho yes maybe in 5, 10 uears...
-become disabled thru illness or accident (which can happen to anyone, at any time)

you can test for a number of condiitons routinely - like down syndrome.
so you can "get rid" if you like ...

(and it isnt about stigma of DS so much as availability of testing for it (and other ones like trisomy 18 etc)

if you find out your baby has a permanent disability pre-birth you can ahve the choice to decide to carry on or not.

once it's born and you find out it has a permaenent disability (or if it becomes disabeld later in life) teh options are different:

• keep and carry on
• give up for adoption
• enter into a shared care foster care arrangement

legislation is such that the option to termnate does not extend to live babies/children/adults with disabilities - so society will always have people with disabiltiies (unless you apply eugenics)

it isnt about whether anyone needs a disabled baby (child/adult) - it is just that it happens in life. a proportion of people wont be "normal".

if no one had babies there would be no more disabled babies. fact.

if there were no illnesses/accidents/etc - there would be no acquired disability. that is not a real world.

buzz - if you or your DC became disabled tomorrow - what would you do?

Not surprised in the least. When my daughter was born with ds and a heart defect in 2002 = that was the first year in the UK that more children with ds were NOT born than were born. And yes I did know before she was born.

THe hardest part of having her in our lives is the battle against ignorance and lack of acceptance of her as a person with a value and a worth. Who knows what her potential is?!?!

I'm not judging the women who do choose a termination because idont think I could handle having and caring for a downs baby after seeing everything my own family have gone through to do with my cousin.

sorri "get rid" does not capture the heartbreak involved in terminating - it isnt a light decision for anyone and is the loss of a wanted baby.

And it is perfectly possible to support a woman's choice to terminate a foetus with Downs's syndrome AND accept and value a person with Down's syndrome who is actually here.

I don;t know why people equate thinking that people should have a right to terminate with saying that a child already here shouldn't be.

Wouldliketoknow Thank you I am absolutely confident that my decision has been the right one, in the circumstances, but it doesn't mean it doesn't hurt when I am judged as not deserving of sympathy for my reaction to a series of events that have been the hardest I have ever had to live through.

I am having enormous difficulty in trying to articulate my feelings but it really really pisses me off that there is a general perception that you rock up for a test, are told sorry your baby has Downs and thinking "goodness well that doesn't fit my perfect little ideal does it, quick get me to the abortion clinic".

a number of children in years gone by who had down syndrome and heart conditions were actually actively denied life saving surgery by doctors. In days prior to cardiac surgery a lot of children with ds died due to the heart condition as there was no help.

My daughter has the most common heart defect that children with ds have. Whilst it is serious it is able to be repaired by surgery. She had two open heart surgeries at 8 weeks old and has not looked back since.

here

and

here

by the way the proper term is baby with downs syndrome.
it is always a baby/person first

mummytobookie - " My aunt and her family have had to give up their lives entirely to care for him."

they chose to do that. they wer not held at gunpoitn and made to give up their lives. maybe they felt they had little choice in the matter - but there are other options.

they could have given him up to foster care/adoption/to residential care/to the system.

it isnt an easy choice - and many of us who end up with disabeld children dont chose that option - tho for example i do have a good level of respite care which i chose to seek. it wasnt offered - if you dont ask you dont get.

but there is a choice available.

it might not be the right choice for the person. but there are choices to be made there.

Nancy, your post almost made me cry. I'm so sorry for the loss of your son. When you fell pregnant again You did what any other parent would have done in your situation. please know (and I hope you do ) that the vast majority of people are understanding and sympathetic towards parents who terminate a pregnancy due to abnormalities.
It's your life - and you have to make a decision based on what's best for you and your family. ( fuck what anyone else thinks)

You sound like a wonderful mother. I wish you and your family all the very best.

xx

there is a stigma about children/people with ds.

Most people are not told that a raised nuchal fold can indicate a number of conditions far more serious and life threatening than down syndrome and yet it seems to be the focus of antenatal testing. When the test throws other things people are surprised - really surprised.

I am constantly asked if I knew whether dd1 had down syndrome before she was born - how is that remotely relevant and especially from medical professionals - again how is that relevant to treating her teeth?!?!

what would I do? Well kill them instantly, obviously, cos thats exactly the same thing.

What makes you assume all my children are perfectly optimal examples of their species anyway? Choosing to abort an unborn foetus has no bearing on how one acts with ones living breathing children, and any argument which tries to equate the two is inane to say the least.

of course for some it is a difficult decision.

But for many, they have already decided to terminate even before they've conceived, just look at the posts on here that claim "I could not continue a pregnancy with a disabled baby" (or words to that effect) and that argument comes up time and time and time again.

It is very simple - people don't want a baby with certain disabilities.

It's interesting, when Julia Hollander wrote about giving up her disabled baby she was fairly roundly criticised by the vast majority on here. So why is that different? Why is it ok to "get rid" of an as yet unborn, but growing baby, but once that baby breathes in air it's suddenly not ok? Even if the circumstances remain the same and the baby has a disability?

Also, given that pregnancies where disability is detected can be terminated up to birth, do people think that a baby born severely disabled should be euthanised? and if not, why not?

Just to add (not that it should matter a jot!) my decision was to have the CVS. Fortunately despite being told at the CVS that my baby would almost certainly have a chromosomal disorder due to an excessive NT she was given the all clear and the issue of termination was put to rest.

But having been through the loss of my DS son and the probablilty that this baby wouldn't survive I have thought long and hard about the choices I would make and feel nothing but the greatest sympathy for someone who aborts a much wanted child.

i think the stigma is to do with availability of testing and the fact that it is presented as the one thing you can test for. and any media stories are always all about down syndrome - very few mention "and possibility to test for other genetic disorders". and yes - that raised nuchal fold for example may indicate a totally different genetic/chromosomal defect. and maybe one which wont be diagnosed with routine chromosome testing.

"But for many, they have already decided to terminate even before they've conceived, just look at the posts on here that claim "I could not continue a pregnancy with a disabled baby" (or words to that effect) and that argument comes up time and time and time again."

It is possible to know that you could not look after a disabled child before actually being pregnant.

Do you believe that having a child knowing you could not care for it is more sensible than making a decision to abort?