To be shocked 90% of Down's babies are aborted?

[Strictly]

I was jut reading this sorry, yes it's from the DM!

and then did a little Googling and it turns out 91% of people told their baby has DS will have an abortion...

I'm just astounded it's so high. I'm not making a judgment on the idea people might abort, but am very shocked that it seems almost universal to abort if told the baby has Down's.

I wonder what it is about that particular condition that 91% of people feel they could not live with? The rates for abortions of Cerebral Palsy babies for example is nowhere near as high. Is it just that Down's is easy to detect so the majority of people actually get the chance to decide?

I think the figure may be high because, as some posters have said, many prospective paretns to whom it would not matter do not have the tests in the first place. The parents who have the test are a self-selecting group of those that it would make a difference to.

"So, for everyone saying they wouldn't risk miscarriage and have an amnio, I think the question still stands, would you find out if it was just part of
all those blood tests that you have early on in pregnancy?" No. I wouldn't abort for ds so no point in having tests imho.

And where is all this evidence that "most babies with ds die before term."? I think it's fair to say that it is believed that many miscarriages before twelve weeks happen due to perceived chromosomal abnormalities, but this does not mean that this is due to downs syndrome. We do, after all, have 46 chromosomes - any one of those could have an "abnormality"

What people also fail to see is that for every baby with downs that is detected through amnio, three "healthy" babies die as result of miscarriage because of the test.

Testing creates a false sense of security IMO, and this is the reason why so many people bring up the fact that there are so many other conditions that cannot be tested for. How many people have posted on here after their amnio saying that the baby is absolutely fine. The reality is that they don't know that; they know that the baby doesn't have downs or edwards or whatever the other conditions are they test for in amnio, but they don't know that the baby won't have complications at birth and develop cp, or be autistic and won't show as having anything wrong until it's two or three, or be developmentally delayed for any number of other reasons. A clear amnio result is held up far too readily as a guarantee of the "perfect" baby, when actually it guarantees nothing of the sort, and gives parents a false sense of security.

I wonder how many parents that have amnio, with a view to terminate if the results come back positive for downs, end up with a child with a different disability they were not prepared for.

As for the "pro choice" argument, the difference is that when aborting a baby with downs that baby goes from being wanted to discarded in the space of a test result. A much wanted, anticipated baby suddenly becomes disposable when it turns out not to be what they ordered.

I am not referring here to babies that have conditions that are incompatible with life such as anencephaly, as that is a totally different issue.

why do people need to have disabled babies? For what purpose? (genuine question)

Eliza Please don't misquote me: I did not say the majority of babies with Downs die shortly after birth I said the majority of babies with Downs die either in the womb or shortly after birth.

Yes a large number of those losses will be pre 12 weeks but a significant number occur much later in pregnancy.

My information comes from two professors in fetal medicine, one at St George's and one at St Thomas's. I vcan't link to the research because it was all given to me in hard copy.

expat, i think that is a bit harsh.

it is not people wanting a perfect baby, it is about knowing that your child is going to have a very challenging life and very little help when you are gone.
it has to be the most dificult decission of your life, it is not the easy way out.

Well, I know someone who thinks that God gives babies with disabilities to very special parents as a gift that shows his particular Love.

and i know a couple who were to have all the children God gave them.
God gave them 14 before 40. then misteriously stopped.

'expat, i think that is a bit harsh.'

So? I don't really care what you think. That's my opinion.

'it is not people wanting a perfect baby, it is about knowing that your child is going to have a very challenging life and very little help when you are gone.
it has to be the most dificult decission of your life, it is not the easy way out.'

I never said it was an easy way out. It's their choice.

But I can't say I feel much sympathy for such people or spare them a thought or any of that crap because in the grand scheme of things I feel there are many others far more worthy of sympathy or sparing a thought for.

Life is full of difficult decisions, it's not fair and it often doesn't go to plan.

Tough.

People deal how they deal, and we don't all agree on everything. So what?

The more shocking thing to me is that if you decide to go ahead with your preganay and your DS child has major health issues your child will in most cases not be offered treatment.....we lost our daughter to a heart defect in feb last year and yes we knew about it before she was born and were given the choice of a termination ....but we had to agree to an amnio before treatment could be offeed to her after birth...now expecting again i still have refused the screening tests but have been scnned very closely for heart defects ....

expat, that intended to be an interchange of opinions, not a personal attack.
i only refer to you because you quoted me, i'll answer your question.
'so what?'
so nothing, i have my opinion, you have yours, i just wanted to give a different perspective.

Caring for a child with disabilities is about to become even harder: the government is making severe cuts to the support for parents with disabled children.

I am waiting for the moment that some spokesperson for The Big Society points out that due to the wide availability of testing, having a child with Down's Syndrome or any other chromosome disorder is personal choice for which parents should take responsibility and not expect state help.

As if parents haven't always taken tremendous responsibility, helped out in a small way by very tightly prescriptive but invaluable benefits.

I also disagree with strictly that most people have the screening test. I have never had it for any of mine.

Tbh I couldn't have a child that I knew was going to be disabled. Yes, there are many disabilities that cannot be detected, but knowing and still going ahead would be a bad decision for me and DH.

This isn't a decision I'd take lightly, at the moment I'm not even sure I can have a child at all. So to abort one after so long trying would be heartbreaking.

i did NOT personally attack you at all!

it's a choice people make that i feel is undeserving of the world's sympathy.

that's all.

saying that is in no way a personal attack.

"But I can't say I feel much sympathy for such people or spare them a thought or any of that crap because in the grand scheme of things I feel there are many others far more worthy of sympathy or sparing a thought for."

Am I misunderstanding? You have no sympathy for people who have to make the most agonizing decision they will ever have to make in their lives, and make it thinking about the long term future of their child?

"And they got one [a baby] to have . But chose otherwise"

Expat it is really not that simple.

I desperately wanted a child, I had a wonderful pregnancy, clear 12 week scan, clear abnomoly scan and then the bottom fell out of my world. I was told that my DS2 had abnormalities which meant it was unlikely I would carry to term. I was scanned and tested, sent to one expert then another and eventually told they were all terribly sorry but there was nothing they could do. If my son did survive the remainder of my pregnancy he would die in my arms shortly after his bith. He had Downs.

9 months after I burried my DS2 I became pregnant with a baby that was longed for in a way I think many people simply cannot imagine. But I knew from the instant that I had the positive pregnancy test that I would have an early CVS and terminate the pregnancy if it was positive for Downs. Not beacuse the baby wouldn't meet "my ideal" but because all the research I had been given indicated that having a live baby was the good, but unusual outcome.

The effect of the loss of my DS2 on me, my DH and my two DC is indescribable. My DD was bereft. She still talks about her dead brother everyday. She still talks of the time that "mummy was so sad and wouldn't stop crying". How could I possibly put her through that again? The bewilderment and hurt. The wondering if he had to stay at the hospital because she had said she didn't want him in her room?

The idea that anyone makes the decision to end a pregnancy because their baby is "not perfect" is a gross over simplification of what must be an extremely traumatic decision.

From here

Each year in the UK, approximately 5% of pregnant women are offered a diagnostic test, such as amniocentesis and chorionic villus sampling (CVS).

So that's actually less than 5% offered the test, and we can assume that not all will actually have the test. Then it's 91% of those who abort. That's not that many at all overall.

Someone said 60% take the test. So.. 3% take the test. And 2.73% abort.

Bit different to 91%.

'it's a choice people make that i feel is undeserving of the world's sympathy."

This seems to me to be a personal attack on anyone who does not see the world in the black and white terms you do.

Really excellent post expat, exactly what I would have liked to say but am not so articulate.

And expat I don't ask for your sympathy or anyone elses but your attitude is frankly offensive. You clearly have no fucking idea.

"Tbh I couldn't have a child that I knew was going to be disabled. Yes, there are many disabilities that cannot be detected, but knowing and still going
ahead would be a bad decision for me and DH." so where would you draw the line then?

If you were told your child had a cleft pallet would you terminate the pregnancy? or had no eyes, or only one foot?

You see disability isn't something you can lump into one big "acceptable/non acceptable" category. Because every disability is different.

I am disabled. Well technically I am disabled. That is to say I have been blind since birth, but it hasn't held me back. I have held down a job, have a child, am an active member of my community (governors/PTA etc), I have a husband, am a SAHM, the only thing I cannot do due to my disability is drive a car.
should I have been terminated?

Would you think someone terminating a blind baby was deserving of sympathy?

Or is it just learning difficulties that people are afraid of?

Agree with seeker, even if you don't mean it to be personal. If someone has had to make that awful decision, reading that they don't deserve sympathy will be taken personally.

nancy, you have done what is right for your family, i just hope you all can in some way overcome the pain, and enjoy your family. i know is hard, but keep going.

I haven't once been told by any of the consultants at the foetal medicine centre in UCH that most babies with down's syndrome die during pregnancy or after birth. No-one told me at ARc or at the Down's Syndrome Association when I phoned up to get information when we were given a 1 in 5 risk. None of my googling yielded that info either.

I find that very surprising if it is true. Has anyone heard that info?