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To be shocked 90% of Down's babies are aborted?

575 replies

Strictly · 14/01/2011 09:20

I was jut reading this sorry, yes it's from the DM!

and then did a little Googling and it turns out 91% of people told their baby has DS will have an abortion... Shock

I'm just astounded it's so high. I'm not making a judgment on the idea people might abort, but am very shocked that it seems almost universal to abort if told the baby has Down's.

I wonder what it is about that particular condition that 91% of people feel they could not live with? The rates for abortions of Cerebral Palsy babies for example is nowhere near as high. Is it just that Down's is easy to detect so the majority of people actually get the chance to decide?

OP posts:
donkeyderby · 15/01/2011 14:10

By the way, if I was pregnant and I knew that I would get adequate help if my baby was disabled, I think I would refuse testing, knowing now as I do how fab people with learning disabilities can be.

If I was pregnant and the current level of help was available, I think I would go for testing and and have an abortion, or possibly opt for adoption.

If I was carrying a foetus who would die in utero or at birth, I think would have an abortion.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 15/01/2011 14:21

tyler, she is exceedingly happy, fulfilled and loving. If she is less happy as she gets older then I would change her, but at the moment I have not seen a happier child, so why would I change her?

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 15/01/2011 14:22

and 2shoes is right, if you waved a magic wand and "cured" DD she would be a totally different person, and I like the current DD.

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 15/01/2011 14:24

would you want to replace your child with an entirely different one?

strawberrycake · 15/01/2011 14:32

I agree with the earlier comment about people who wouldn't abort don;t have the test. I avoided the test because in my heart I knew I wanted my child regardless but was worried I'd crack under pressure from others if DS did have downs. It's easy to carry on if you don't know but I'd find it incredibly hard to know about downs before birth. I'd rather find out about SN at birth and just be forced to kick into deal-with-it mode than spend months worrying about it.

I'm am aware this is not always the best approach as sometimes tests can mean better support at the birth is ready and waiting.

sarah293 · 15/01/2011 14:39

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tyler80 · 15/01/2011 15:24

How would it make them a totally different person? On the one hand you have people saying look beyond the disability and then in the next breath saying if you took away the disability they'd be a totally different person.

I actually think personality is more innate than that, hence my desire to wave a magic wand, because there is no doubt my brother's life would be easier if he wasn't constrained by his disability.

I think it's perfectly possible to absolutely love someone as they are but still wish they didn't have the problems they have.

2shoes · 15/01/2011 15:27

ih please do try to understand.

dd is 15 I have long ago accepted that she is disabled, she is who she is, and yes her cp is now part of that, I cannot cure it, no one can.
she is who she is, I wouldn't change her as I love her I cannot understand why that is hard to understand.
I gave up on what if's years ago.
I cried and ranted, I grieved, then I accepted, my dd is a person, she is my dd.
why would I want anyone else.

to quote, would you exchange you child for another???

fanjoforthemammaries7850 · 15/01/2011 15:29

tyler, well then, we'll have to agree to differ, you cannot tell us how to feel about our own children!

GabbyLoggon · 15/01/2011 15:42

Writing generally I dont think we should lose our ability to be ahicked. cheers Gabby

KalokiMallow · 15/01/2011 15:42

I do understand what those of you with disabled children are saying, and having read your posts previously your DC's sound absolutely wonderful!

You are right that we cannot know beforehand what a child with a disability will be like, but we can know what we are like. And that for me is why I couldn't knowingly bring a disabled child into the world. I know that I couldn't offer them enough.

GabbyLoggon · 15/01/2011 15:42

I meant shocked

architien · 15/01/2011 16:01

None of us know for certain that we will be able to offer a child enough regardless of what attributes they have. What we do have though is the certain knowledge that they are our child and the choice to always do our very best to help them lead a good life.

I know someone close who 30 odd years ago decided to terminate when finding the news that there was a higher than average chance and she has always regretted it. She now thinks that she would have coped but was frightened of the stigma. It had huge and wider repercusions fo her life. I'm not saying everyone is exactly the same but just how it turned out for one woman.

90% is very high, and yes I am taken aback, even when you minus the numbers who opt to not have the test in the first place it's still very high so obviously an unspoken accepted norm. It does leave everyone to their own theories as to why it is such a high figure.

KalokiMallow · 15/01/2011 16:02

architien It actually works out to about 2% of all pregnancies.

wannaBe · 15/01/2011 16:07

They wouldn't be who they are now because they wouldn't have had the experiences they have had as the person they are now, and thus it would be different. I think that as a parent it is natural to say that you wouldn't want your child to have the difficulties they do now, but I wonder, if we asked the children, would they want things to be different? Let me give you an example:

I've recently found out that I was misdiagnosed as a baby. When my parents discovered that I couldn't see we went to various specialists who proclaimed that there was nothing wrong with my eyes, or the optic nerve to my eyes but that my blindness must be cortical ie something to do with a problem in the visual cortex of the brain. They didn't know what, or why, it just was. Then two years ago I developed glaucoma in my right eye and it was then discovered that I had cateracts in both eyes. I saw a consultant who said that cateracts don't develop in normally healthy eyes and that his belief was that the problem with my eyes wasn't actually cortical at all but that there was possibly an issue with my retinas, but that this could not be established due to the fact I have cateracts which cannot be removed as they are complex...

Fast forward to late last year, and I managed to get an appointment at moorfields in London. After a long consultation it is now believed that I actually had juvanile glaucoma as a baby but that this didn't present as it usually does and so was never picked up. Is there anything that could have been done then? if it had been picked up then, possibly, but as it wasn't there's no way of knowing and we're beyond the point of no return to the extent that I anticipate I will probably have my right eye surgically removed in the not too distant future.

My mum has been quite affected by all this. Saying that she wants a definitive diagnosis, that she wonders if anything could have been done, if only we'd known then maybe I could have seen and so on.

I am unaffected. It's done. These things happen and I am the person I am because of it most probably. And if someone offered me sight tomorrow I honestly don't know if I would take it, because becoming sighted would be like becoming disabled - I would have to learn to do everything as a sighted person, to read and write and recognise people from their faces and the list goes on. My mum doesn't understand this, she said that seeing would just be normal though, but it wouldn't be, not to me. Not being able to see is normal to me, and I've known no different in the same way as someone who can see has known no different and questions how someone who cannot can do certain things.

Most people I know see beyond my "disability", but there are certain aspects of my disability that have made me who I am. I don't look at people and judge them on their appearance; I take people as people and judge them on who they are, not what they look like. If I could see it's unlikely I would think like that, since visual chemistry is something we are programmed to have. That's just one example but ykwim.

Of course in instances where a child is severely disabled one might think differently. But if someone has never known any different is it really their disability they would change? or peoples' perceptions of them based on their disability.

architien · 15/01/2011 16:08

Thanks for the overall statistic of 2% of all pregnancies KalokiMallow although do I understand correctly that of the cohort of pregnancies which result in high than average chance following testing result in 90% of abortion in outcome?
If that is the case, then I agree with a lot of posters in that it seems higher than I had thought it may be.

2shoes · 15/01/2011 16:12

good post wannabe, I think you explain it very well.

sarah293 · 15/01/2011 16:14

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jellybeans · 15/01/2011 16:17

I am not shocked. Many people don't agree to the tests in the first place so those who find out for sure through invasive testing are probably already considering whether to terminate or not before the test.

I had a baby diagnosed with a probably fatal disorder, much rare than downs, and a baby who was 'high risk' bloods for downs. I know how it feels to go through the rollercoaster and awful decision making and the guilt which follows if the pregnancy is ended.

It is not taken lightly and is rarely that the parents simply 'don't want' a disabled child. I have often heard such parents say they feel it was unfair to go ahead, on the baby and the existing family.

A difficult situation is when the family already has a child with downs. If they terminate the next baby- if they had downs- what are they saying about the existing child? Is it anything? What if they simply cannot cope with another child with special needs? Is it wrong to prioritise the existing child? After all, surely they know the reality, the joys and hardships of a child with special needs? So it is not always 'ignorance' which leads to abortions of this type.

Personally I think it is up to the individual family. I don't think they are doing anything eugenic by making a choice for themselves. If termination of babies with severe illnesses are wrong then what about those of babies whose parents were just not in the right situation etc.

ednurse · 15/01/2011 16:21

I would refuse a Downs Screen in any of my pregnancies. The result would not change the outcome of that pregnancy.

tyler80 · 15/01/2011 16:37

That's a very interesting post wannaBe, we are all sums of our experiences. But you clearly have the ability to make that sort of cognitive decision.

To decide for your baby that their disability is too great to bring them into the world must be heartbreaking but I don't believe in life at all costs.

tyler80 · 15/01/2011 16:42

I think the bit that sits uncomfortably with me is that the idea that disability makes you who you are as it can be taken too far.

It's not something I've kept up with, but I there are people within the deaf community who wanted to have the ability to select embryos to ensure their children were also deaf because deafness was part of their identity.

sarah293 · 15/01/2011 16:43

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Mouseface · 15/01/2011 16:48

When I was expecting DS, they measured the nucal (sp?) fold at my first scan.

They told me it was thinkened, by quite a lot and this usually indicates Downs or SB.

DH and I sat in a room, on our own after the scan waiting for the consultant to 'come and have a word about our options'

We both said that no matter what, we were not going to terminate this pregnancy.

They wanted to re-scan me two weeks later but we moved house so changed hospitals.

It was another six weeks before I was scanned again.

The next scan showed no abnormalities, no thickening, all was fine and as it should be.

So imagine if we had terminated in those six weeks.

As it turned out, DS was born with SN/LD and a life threatening heart condition.

Maybe that first scan was a little 'heads up' from the powers that be.

Mouseface · 15/01/2011 16:50

And I should add, had I known about his conditions in advance, I would still have gone through with the pregnancy, as would DH.