Or is this woman dead annoying? (Dragon Mother article in Sunday Times)

[ragged]

Amy Chua article in the Sunday Times -- I can't link to the ST version, but I think this Wall St. Journal piece is good-as identical.

I'm in 3 minds about it:

1. It's just one persons's perspective
2. It's a blatent brag fest
3. It's factually wrong and perhaps even defamatory in so many ways. If 25% of humanity are ethnic "Chinese", they can't all be high achievers, can they?

Related discussion here, too.

I have copied and pasted my response to this I made in News section. To those of you who have condemned this woman, then please ignore some of what I have said. It has shocked and saddened me tbh.

I am surprised some of you are even seeing her point of view at all

This is nothing short of emotional abuse and cruelty regardless of her nationality and culture. Horrific woman.

You know I had a father like her and I ended up with eating disorders, self harming and later had therapy. I often wonder why no one notcied in my childhood, the vile bully that he was. He would scream and rant at me to do well at sport and then call me fat and lazy when I failed.

But then so many of you are either trying to understand her or at the very least, not exactly condemning her. So that may explain how this type of abuse goes unhindered.

And it is abuse, mark my words and her children may have all the A grades in the world but they will probably be crying inside. In fact I cried reading the article.

Nothing wrong with loving and cherishing your children unconditionally. To accept their fragility at times and help them through difficult patches. To believe that indeed your children don't owe you anything. I do inherently believe in my kid's strength and potential but it does not define my love for them. It is because they are the only them in the whole world and they are mine.

"The last time I smacked my son he howled, "Hitting is baaaaad, not allowed to hit"." Awwwww, bless! Hope he's recovered!

I accidentally knocked my son over in the kitchen (stood behind me and I stepped backwards) and he told me off good and proper "You pushed me over! You pushed me mommy!" crying and pointing. It took me ages to convince him it was an accident as I'd spent the entire time the day before telling him we do not push our friends

Bupcakes - I'm glad you found a method to suit your child. However, as I said, smacking worked for me. If it had no effect on me, I'm sure my parents would have found another way. The point I was trying to make was that, for example, as a 5 year old, you have no rationale or higher sense of reasoning, so there are somethings your parents just can't get through to you - say, 'don't steal', for example. If the kid won't listen to reasoning and logic, your options for discipline are reduced, aren't they? You do whatever fits the kid. Some need smacking, others don't.

I cried when I was smacked - doesn't mean I was traumatised! Doesn't your child cry or throw tantrums? Doesn't mean he's traumatised either, does it? as a child, I never held on to resentment - that never crossed my mind! It wasn't tyrannical smacking for no reason.

Xenia I don't often agree with you but today I do!

'Has anyone considered that maybe this woman knows her children better than we do and there's a slight chance that she knows what's best for HER children?'

I have considered it and no she is an abuser.
There is no justifcation to smack a child, it is lack of control as a parent.
I have been on the Sunday Times website, there is not a single comment in agreement and it is full of Chinese women saying that she isn't typical but represents a small minority. They value education but they wouldn't treat their DCs like that.

Roseability
I am sorry that this upset you.

I agree. Abuse is abuse. No matter how you dress it up or excuse it.

Surely any "method" of parenting be it Gina Ford routine or Dragon mother versus western liberal is inherently flawed because people are so different it is impossible to say "my way works for everyone". Just utter nonsense and very arrogant. Probably some children would benefit from a watered down version of this approach for others it could be mentally damaging. Surely the difficult thing about parenting is that you have to tailor your approach to your personality, circumstances and most importantly the child's character. Making no adjustments for these and clinging onto one ideology proclaiming it to be "right" is essentially a rubbish idea and potentially damaging.

I was one of 3. Two eldest naturally academic, pushed ourselves too far, parents if anything needed to stop us overdoing it. They took this approach with the third child realising just in time that she was a very different type and needed policing and a hearty shove to ensure she did her school work. They had to parent her totally differently to the eldest two and had the wit and sensitivity to realise that. Do find people like this with their fixed ideas rather limited and actually not very intelligent.

Yes my child cries and throws tantrums. This is normal. It's not normal for your child to cry because you hit them hard enough to bring them to tears.

Please, I would cry not because I was in physical pain, but probably because I just didn't want to be inside learning long division! It's a tantrum by any other name.

Kerala1 - completely agree

I wonder if we stuck all the typical "Dragon" mothers in a room with all the die-hard UPers, then a spontaneious combustion of all those present would result, sparing the rest of us years of feeling seasick every time we read testimonials from one camp or the other.

There's a big difference in my opinion between hitting a child if they run across a busy road, and regularly whacking them with a ruler if they get their long division wrong. I cannot believe anyone is justifying hitting their children into submission (to do the work) and then hitting them if the work is not good enough. To her credit, that is not what the Dragon Mother describes either, although I think not letting your child use the toilet or eat, all to play a tune called the 'Little White Donkey' is pretty pathetic.

I dont agree with hitting children at all because I was hit as a child. However, when DS2 turned round to me and DW one day and accused us of treating him like a slave for suggesting he had to learn his spelling words for his weekly test I did feel we were within our rights to insist he had to do it and be tested several times by us to make sure he could do it perfectly - becuase he is capable.

Its a question of balance. Brutal methods are not necessary.

I was smacked as a child. I dont remember most of those hidings. the ones I remember are the ones where an object was used - a slipper, a flip flop, a wooden spoon, a ruler, a leather strap, a bamboo cane.

Those that say they were hit with a ruler and it did no harm....really? But you remember it. SO somewhere, it harmed. Because I doubt you can remember being smacked on the hand as a child. But you damned sure remember the ruler.

'brutal methods are not necessary' - a round about way of saying it is wrong to abuse your children

Kerala - I would not describe this as a'method of parenting', I would describe it as abuse.

Why are people even trying to debate and philosophise about this? It is abuse, end of. If people stopped trying to justify these kind of actions and stood up and declared it as abuse and took action to support children who are the victims of such cruelty then maybe their would be less misery in the world.

there not their - sorry typo

"abuse is abuse" is nonsensical. Definitions vary. An ardent anti-smacker could accuse a smacker of abuse, who will obviously disagree. Its not simple, its not end of.

She doesn't think of as abuse. She's not the only person who parents this way. We all can disagree. Stop trying to make it so simple.

You say you're not defending her BLB but you've quite curtly put down any poster who disagrees with her abusive parenting. If she lived in the UK, she'd have social services on her back. This isn't some quaint little quirk of Chinese culture; she is an aggressive bully. I don't believe that her methods are the norm even amongst Chinese parents. She is an extreme example.

No I haven't. You seem to be misunderstanding my position (probably my fault ). To be clear; I am not defending her, I am not saying that she's doing a great job. Neither am I saying that all Chinese parents are like this or that her exact methods are very common.
What I am saying is that her parenting is based on her culture. Yes its an extreme example (we think, we really don't know whether its that unusual, but probably), but it does come from her culture. It didn't spring unbidden. It came from how she was parented and the culture around it.
I'm objecting to the people, particularly at the start of the thread, who jumped in calling her things like evil bitch and slating everything she said, without making any attempt to look at it from a different point of view. As she says in that article, Chinese parents on the whole think that western parents are far to soft, and you can be sure that plenty of them would think we are failing our children just as surely as we think she is.
I've had more than one Korean mother tell me how waegukin don't care enough about their childrens education or future, being too interested in fun (which was somehow made to seem like a Bad Thing!).

Anyway, I've said what I wanted to.

well buzzlightbeer abuse is abuse where I come from because I suffered at the hands of it. That is like saying well my daddy thought he was doing a great job by putting his hand down my pants. He isn't the only dad that does this and he thinks it is okay.

Of course things are rarely black and white but some things have to be labelled as wrong. There is not one part of my life that wouldn't have been made happier if someone had had the guts to call abuse abuse when I was a kid and this kind of intellectual philosophising irritates me and is usually made by those who have no idea what it feels like to be the victim of parental abuse

And before you say that you cannot compare a 'parenting method' to sexual abuse, it all comes under the umbrella of emotional abuse and can be just as damaging. My step father once groped me but do you know what hurt most? The fact that his love was conditional on my success (sporting and academic). Like that mother he would scream and rant until 'I got it right' and withdraw his love if I didn't. But I am sure he though his 'method' was for my own good. Well I can state categorically that it wasn't

I keep reading this as 'Is this dead woman annoying?', which I thought was a bit harsh.

As you were.

I am very sorry for you rose but that has nothing to do with the matter at hand.

And please do not assume what people have experience of, as you have no idea about anyone else on this thread or their lives.

Abuse is reasonably simple to define, imo.

We can discuss all night about smacking, our legal system has classed it as abuse and made it illegal.

Similarly, emotional abuse is not that difficult to pinpoint. I am not talking about a parent losing his/her temper and shouting at the child. This happens and no one would consider calling social services for a one off loss of control.

If someone were to post that she had seen a leggings-clad mother in Asda scream and swear at her child, MN would explode with posters advising to call social services.

Calling a child "garbage" is no different to a mother shouting "fucking cunt" at his child in Asda.

Just because it is dressed up as caring for the child, as wanting to help that child achieve something in life, it is still abusive.

stop press I have just read a follow up interview with Chua in today's Times which, while it covers much of the same ground, also includes her admission that she stopped "Chinese parenting" because she "realised she was pushing her children too hard". According to Chua, neither of her children seem to resent her even though they are both at that sticky teenage age. Curiously, she says she is not sure her methods would have worked with boys .

I don't want you to feel sorry for me but I do feel it has something to do with the matter in hand which is discussing whether this woman's parenting is acceptable or not. As someone who was brought up with some similar parenting methods I am entitled to an opinion on the matter and of course my experiences will shape those opinions. This woman's actions are abuse and no one will persuade me otherwise.

No I don't know anything about your life and I am presuming you have not been the victim of parental emotional abuse by the tone and content of your posts. Do correct me if I am wrong.

How can anyone justify calling a child garbage buzzlightbeer? Relativism? Parental rights? I'm sorry none of that washes with me. I will bring my kids up the unconditional way, they may not achieve all the best grades or be damn perfect but they will feel loved and human with a connection to the world which goes beyond the conditions of their worth. This is not a 'method' it is just called being a normal loving mother

I have just read the part in the Times. She had to stop micromanaging them (Hooray!). IT DIDN'T WORK. The younger one rebelled completely at 13 and refused to cooperate, it caused huge, explosive rows and she realised she was in danger of losing her daughter. Lulu promptly gave up the violin and took up tennis (the mother didn't count sport). Both girls not 'waste a lot of time'(to quote the mother) on Facebook and the older girl is dating. The father, all along, provided the fun part and took them swimming etc.
I thought it telling that she didn't have any faith that her methods would have worked with boys.
We only have her side that her DCs don't resent her.I expect that they can take a happier view now that they have got their own way.
I find it sad that this is a parenting website and people actually think that she was right! I also think it wonderful that it DID NOT WORK. A lesson to everyone who thinks they can live their life through their DCs or live their DC's life for them.