Private Education and State Education

[ScienceDad]

I wanted to keep it seperate from my other post in here, since people kept wanting to derail the original post with it.

Why are people so up in arms over this? I mentioned that my DD was privately educated and it seemed that that was the only thing people could see in the post and their minds had already clouded with prejudice.

The education level in this country is, if you're able to ignore the Daily Mails Doomsaying, world class, regardless of if it's independant or state.

I was given a state education, and send my daughter to a private school. I think both are really good, and you shoulndt get hung up on jealousy / superiority issues and just be thankful that we don't have the American or similar system.

Cleofartra - I agree with you that it would be far better to have a less divisive system. However, historically, England does have a class system. It does have a long history of private schools. Therefore, we need to work towards creating a society which is more equitable, but that can't be done overnight.
I do think think, genuinely, that we are moving in the right direction. A few generations ago, children were effectively written off at age 11 because they didn't pass the 11 + and therefore had no access even to O Levels, never mind A Levels and University. And many of these were highly intelligent, creative people (often boys) who just didn't fit the narrow style of that particular type of test. That was scandalous. Nowadays, there is greater equality of opportunity. I teach loads of really bright, creative young people who get into top Universities, not because they passed some ridicuous test at age 11, or because their parents opened a cheque book, but simply through attending their local school and being very clever. Which is how it should be.

Put VAT on school fees that will fix it. Sorry, couldn't resist saying it.

Well who knows !! Anything could happen!

I do have some private school teacher colleagues, and one thing that's a BIG issue right now is pensions... I can certainly see school fees rising to take this into account - schools will need to make pension conditions at least vaguely as attractive as state school counterparts!

There have been a number of court cases where Schools have had to defend their charitable status in order to ensure they were not subject to VAT.

I have no strong feelings on the matter and luckily to us it's not a massive issue -we would cope but it could have a big effect on families with 3 or 4 kids in the private school system.

If school fees do rise then I would imagine there will be families who will take their children out of independant school and put them into the system - meaning that already stretched resources are stretched even more?

Actually it was girls who were more likely to be written off. In the 60s and before, the general attitude towards girls was that further or higher education was unnecessary as their primary role was to become housewives and mothers and to support the male breadwiiner (a legacy of this is the poor pension arrangements for women of retirement age today and a glass ceiling that is only just beginning to crack).
Public exam pass rates were also deliberately skewed to reflect this - girls had to achieve better results just to stay at level pegging with boys and there were fewer university places set aside for girls as well. This has been well documented but rarely alluded to in the media.
Parents from all clases gave far greater priority to their boys' education - and in the public schools today you can still see this bias - there are fewer girls public schools and their fees are generally lower.

Cleofartra -my intention was not to insult you in any way. If I have I apologise.

I do have a strong belief in work vs reward but only because I have HAD to work for everything I have ever had and maybe also because not everyone in my family has the same belief. I definately seem to be the black sheep as none of my siblings would 'lower' themselves to work and they see me as the weird one.

I was unaware that the average salary in the UK was £26k - that is a bit of a shock!

It's not going to happen.

If families took their children out of private and put them into the local state school it might prevent a disproportionate number of kids from independent schools taking places at Oxbridge and RG universities and therefore broaden access.

Cleofartra I dont get the objection to DS1 going to a private school as he was sporty.

And it is a choice. We went without holidays and lots of other things that other people deem as essential, such as a car, new clothes, home improvements, etc. We chose to use the money that we earned to send our children to a school that was the right environment for them, rather than use it for other things that other people may find more important.

I don't see anyone objecting to families paying for 2 or 3 foreign holidays a year rather than using the money for an education for their DC's, so who has the right to be critical about my families decisions?

You should also consider that paying for the education of our children left more money in the state school pot for children that admittedly were not as fortunate as ours.

And to clear up any other misconceptions that people have about parents who send their DC's to a private school, I am a Labour voter and have been all my life.

btbetty -in response to your earlier post: yes, there's always some degree of exodus from private to state when school fees rise. I work in an over subscribed state school, and we regularly get parents going to appeal to try to get their kids into our school when they can't afford the fees any more.

It was the way you put it on your OP - though you explained later.

It sounded like 'goodness this sort of thing shouldn't happen in private education' but you might expect it in cheaper private or state.

i am pro private schools and went to one myself. i am scared about sending dd to a state school unless we move to a very different area. i want her to grow up in an environment where it is normal that all her friends go on to university as it was at my school (i wont force her if she doesn't fancu it - i just want it to be the norm in her peer group). i am scared it will not be at a comp where we live. i want her to have an easy, middle class life with lots of oppertunites and confidence.

however Sciencedad - in your other thread op you sound like you need to justify your complaint about the teacher by pointing out its a private school. the compliant is totally justified but you sound scared to make it

Even though I am privately educated and quite privileged I find your attitude quite ignorant and a little offensive Betty. We could prob afford to privately educate when the time comes as we too have worked bloody hard,but I would never for a second take the attitude that those who have less must have chosen not to work as hard,how ridiculous.

As previously stated, I am by no means anti PE, far from it, but this sort of attitude irritates me.

NinkyNinker - I have either not worded my posts very well or something has been lost in translation.

I have stated quite a number of times that both DH and I worked two jobs and deliberately put off having our DC until we had enough financially behind us to be able to afford what we wanted for him.

My hard work comment was in response to a comment about it not being fair that some people could afford private education when others couldn't. Life unfortunately isn't fair.

I can only comment on my experiences - we are not rich and the only way we can afford to send DS to private school is by working long hours, taking on additional work and sacrificing other things.

I never once stated that anyone who could not afford private school fees didn't work hard or as hard as us -only that we made certain choices that may not be ideal for other families ( i.e. only having one child, putting off having children until we had money behind us etc)

Jajas - I completely understand and maybe I haven't come across too well in my posts.

It is a very emotive issue and we have IRL experienced a lot of negativity and another poster so eloquenlty put it 'inverted snobbery'about our decisions.

I don't think I should be made to feel guilty because we've acheived - both DH and I have worked all our lives and both pay higher rate tax so we are contributing a decent amount to the government coffers not forgetting other taxes (council, road etc) We have never claimed benefit nor tax credits or anything else so I do get a bit sensitive to people judging us for how we spend our money.

I don't jusge anyone else over how they spend their money and truely feel that the state school options should be of a sufficient level that no-one should feel their child is not getting the best education irrespective of income/postcode....

No-one here is judging you on how you choose to spend your money. Merely on how you have expressed yourself, which may just be a downside of the written word.

"I don't see anyone objecting to families paying for 2 or 3 foreign holidays a year rather than using the money for an education for their DC's"

Did you not see my post about the average salary in the UK being 26K?

Most of the families where I live have never taken their children abroad EVER.

"I don't think I should be made to feel guilty because we've acheived - both DH and I have worked all our lives"

You're not being made to feel guilty 'because you've achieved'. People object to some children being given an UNFAIR ADVANTAGE over other children. Children who've been privately educated in very good schools have a HUGE and UNFAIR advantage over children from poorer families who're being educated in large classes in state schools. That's the bottom line. It's not fair. It's wrong. The system stinks. No one child 'deserves' to have hugely better educational opportunities than another child, no matter what their parent does or doesn't do.

I was state educated all the way and even had a few years as home educated which as a result i am very strongly against. I have ended up with ok qualifications and a good job.

Having said that I would like to educate any DC's privately from 11 plus. There are outstanding state primaries in my area and I would send them to one of those. But the secondary schools are useless. For that reason I'd opt for private.

It does stink Cleofartra but am not sure how we as individuals can change it.

We do a lot (not going into details on here) in our local community to help children who don't have much and we do because we feel it's our duty and as we both came from very poor families we want to help other kids who went through what we did -however it's absolutely nothing in the large scheme of things and is not even the tip of the iceberg. Some of the kids we meet are very very bright and the education system is letting them down badly - I daily wish there was more I could do. These kids are in exreme situations though and mostly in foster care or homes and their needs are different to the norm.

I'm not sure if you've looked into it but you were saying that your DD is very bright and not being challenged enough at school - friends of ours are in the same boat and they have arranged extra lessons at night for their DD. It certainly seems to be helping expecially in maths where she is very talented. If you want I can find out the name of the company etc?? Not sure if it's a nationwide company or not.

I am interested in why the idea of private education arouses such strong emotions, when it's only one manifestation of an unequal society. for example, what about inheritance and the property owning classes. A huge propertion of parents will be able to leave substantial sums to their children but other children will get nothing. Some people live in leafy suburbs, drive nice cars and have an altogether lovely life, while others struggle to make ends meet. Some parents can give their dc a leg up in the family business. Some parents employ tutors so that their dc can pass their exams.

Elton John's baby is a prime example of a child who will have the best of everything, and we accept it so why the antagonism against parents who privatelt educate thier dc?

It has been widely reported that Elton John and his partner have just had a new born son born of a surrogate mother. If we're talking about material advantage - this is the mother of them all.