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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Private Education and State Education

126 replies

ScienceDad · 03/01/2011 11:36

I wanted to keep it seperate from my other post in here, since people kept wanting to derail the original post with it.

Why are people so up in arms over this? I mentioned that my DD was privately educated and it seemed that that was the only thing people could see in the post and their minds had already clouded with prejudice.

The education level in this country is, if you're able to ignore the Daily Mails Doomsaying, world class, regardless of if it's independant or state.

I was given a state education, and send my daughter to a private school. I think both are really good, and you shoulndt get hung up on jealousy / superiority issues and just be thankful that we don't have the American or similar system.

OP posts:
Onetoomanycornettos · 03/01/2011 15:26

I really disagree that the education level in this country is 'world class'. In all measures over the years, our status as a world class educator is dropping well below numerous other countries, despite grade inflation and OFTSED's reports. I think the education system is fine, ok, medium at best. Plenty of other western (and eastern) european countries have equal ones. There are a few superb private schools which I would pay for, otherwise the divide is not that great IMO but I don't think your assessment of the overall standard is correct.

emmyloulou · 03/01/2011 15:49

We looked at private schools for 2 of our dc's, I am happy with them in state on the whole, I wouldn't want them to go to away either!

NinkyNonker · 03/01/2011 15:55

I really didn't mean to be harsh, I too was privately educated and it gave me advantages, but they were advantages earned for me by my parents, not me if you see what I mean. Don't get me wrong, I too would educate DD privately were it the right choice, but I wouldn't be surprised were others to express the sentiments I relayed to you.

Cleofartra · 03/01/2011 16:56

"It is only a choice, not a divide"

It's not a choice if you can't afford it.

And it is a divide. Oxford, Cambridge and the other top universities in the UK are disproportionately populated by students who've been to private schools.

From the Guardian:

"A private school education still offers a massive advantage to those aspiring to rise to reach the top of their professions, according to new research today.

A study examining the educational backgrounds of the 500 most influential people working in politics, the media, medicine, law and business reveals that more than half had attended fee-paying independent schools. That compares with the tiny proportion of pupils - just 7% - who are privately educated."

KindleTheSky · 03/01/2011 17:01

Its a divide, not a choice.

Is a much better description of private ed IMO.

Cleofartra · 03/01/2011 17:04

"DS1 was very sporty, and the local state secondary school was not"

"So, it's all about what is best for your individual DC".

Yes - and it's just as much about how deep your pockets are.

I know what would suit my children. I wanted my dd to go to a local girls Catholic school which specialises in music. Unfortunately for her we're not religious and so she didn't stand a chance of getting in. She's now at the local comp and is bored to death in music classes because she's so far ahead of the other children.

There's a local private school which has outstanding music provision but we couldn't afford the fees.

My middle boy is bright and would benefit from going to a secondary school which was very academic. There are two grammar schools which he could apply for. Last year both had 1300 applications for 60 places. The local private prep schools bus their boys in for the entrance exams, after they've had a full term of 11+ booster classes at school (and after many of them have attended whole week 11+ booster courses during the summer holidays too). What chance do boys like my son stand without that intensive preparation, never mind that privately educated primary school students have had vastly more learning time running up to the 11+ because of smaller classes and less disruption in school.

None of this is fair. It's all crap and it's wrong.

btbetty · 03/01/2011 17:09

'Its not a choice if you can't afford it'

Surely that's still a choice though?

We can only afford it through choosing to work very hard and choosing at times to take on second jobs early in our careers. We choose certain career paths because we wanted a certain lifestyle.

Neither I nor DH left school with many qualifications and neither of us were lucky enough to afford higher eduction when we left school. Neither of us has ever had any financial support from family ( in fact the opposite is true and we have and still to this do support other family members). We can afford to send our son to private school though choices we have made -and please don't think by saying that I think it's easy because I don't - I worked two jobs from 14 and had two jobs until I reached a decent career level.

We've made the choice only to have 1 child as we feel our finances are at a comfortable level and another child would stretch that. I know of many people who choose to have numerous kids but could not afford to feed them without government assistance...

KindleTheSky · 03/01/2011 17:12

I work very hard and I can't afford it. Are you suggesting that I don't work as hard as you ?

usualsuspect · 03/01/2011 17:18

I hope you never lose your job btbetty

btbetty · 03/01/2011 17:19

Not at all KindleinTheSky -all I am saying is that we have made choices that lead us down a certain path and for us it has been a bloody hard slog but we've achieved what we wanted to achieve so far) but we've made choices over the years that maybe wouldn't suit other families (only having one child, working two jobs, don't drink/smoke/no designer clothes etc)

Some people assume if you send your kinds to private school then it must be inherited money or born with a silver spoon and maybe in a lot of cases that's true but definately not in ours and we had a game plan of how much we wanted to earn and have in the bank before we had our son - if we hadn't reached that goal we may have had a rethink but we certainly would have delayed having a child.

btbetty · 03/01/2011 17:22

Usual suspect -I was made redundant in May and didn't gain full time employment again until October but I had made provision to ensure if the worst did happen that I would be covered. I also took on temp work to bridge the gap.

I think that is quite a mean thing to say - I have worked full time since I was 14, I am not smug I work extremely hard and do not expect anything to be handed to me on a plate.

KindleTheSky · 03/01/2011 17:24

I don't think you can assume that others don't make similar choices and still are on a lower income.

btbetty · 03/01/2011 17:29

Fair point Kindle - when I was made redundant and waiting to hear about a job I had applied for ( 5 stage interview process and took over 3 months - I was demented!) I took on some temp work an was really shocked at the low wages some companies get away with paying. I worked with some amazing people who were very much stuck in a catch 22 situation where they should have been paid more but the industries they were working in artificially kept wages lower than market rates.

Onetoomanycornettos · 03/01/2011 17:30

Well, it is something to factor in, in making decisions about how many children you have and what career choices you make, it's a strong incentive for me to earn more money and not have more children, the thought that I may want/need to pay for private education later on.

Cleofartra · 03/01/2011 17:40

"Some people assume if you send your kinds to private school then it must be inherited money or born with a silver spoon"

So what's your household income then?

DH and I could have afforded private schooling if we only had one child.

We should have stopped at one, but we didn't.

How would you explain to my children though how it's fair they THEY will have to pay the price for having siblings and parents who foolishly 'chose' not to work in very high paying jobs?

Because you seem to be arguing that the situation is somehow fair as long as people can justify having more money to spend on their children's education than others by dint of the fact they work harder/better/spend less/have a more 'important' job?

thebrownstuff · 03/01/2011 17:43

I see the year has started with a bang on MN Grin

State v private (check), sex thread (check) husband crying because locked in car (check)

It's been a good day Xmas Grin

thebrownstuff · 03/01/2011 17:46

oh yes BLW smugwankery Xmas Grin

Violethill · 03/01/2011 17:57

Cleofartra - without living in some sort of communist regime, where all children had identical schooling, regardless of aptitude, ability, specific creative talent (eg sport, music) and where everyone earned an equal income, regardless of whether they worked in a low stress, low skill job or one with high pressure.... how would you create your ideal?

Because even if private schools were outlawed, you would still have variation between state schools. We all know that excellent state schools inflate local house prices. I live in an area with good state schools - but house prices are high. We can only afford to live here because we both work, and earn high incomes.... but then we both only earn high incomes because we both worked damned hard at Universities, then gained higher degrees, then gained professional qualifications, then continued working while our children were small..... do you see what I am saying?

Yes, of course there are people who work equally hard and wouldn't be able to afford school fees (btw we choose not to pay them) - no one has said there is a direct correlation between how hard you work and what you can afford.

There are so many variables. Some people do choose to limit their family to one or two children, because they can afford school fees for that number and no more. Other people would prefer to have three or four children and forego private school. Some people are happy to allow grandparents to pay the fees; others would feel uncomfortable allowing that.

Life is very rarely straightforward choice for any of us - but its about a degree of choice within the certain constraints.

FWIW, I do think the education system has moved a long way and is far less divisive than in the old days of grammar schools (though I know they still exist in some outdated authorities). Generally speaking its quite possible now to achieve well and get into a good University if you are bright enough and motivated, and for many people private schools are an outdated irrelevance. I went to one of the first comprehensive schools in my area. Prior to that, if you didn't pass the 11 plus (ridiculous narrow test which did very little to measure real intelligence) then you'd be stuffed in a secondary modern and not even have access to O Levels. My comp was far from great, and most pupils left at 16, but the opportunity was there to stay on at 6th form, which I did, and went to a RG University and haven't looked back. Ultimately, the home environment and your personal motivation will get you further in life than whether your parents send a cheque off every term.

btbetty · 03/01/2011 18:02

Cleofarta - I don't want to get into a big debate with you as there really is no right and wrong in this.You've chosen a path that suits your family and I've chosen one that suits mine.

Our household income has nothing to do with us having inherited money - beleive me nothing colud be further from the truth!!!

At the end of the day life isn't fair -we just make the best of it we can. I believe very strongly that if you want something in life you have to work hard to pay for it -is that fair??? I think so. Do I think it's fair that some children may not be getting the education they deserve due to the failings of our government -no absolutely not! As I said in a previous post I don't have all the answers.

What I would suggest though is if you feel that your child would benefit from moving school is look into your local independant schools -many of them have trusts set up and will pay up to 100% of school fees for familiies below a certain income bracket. Our school has around 10 places per year that they fund.

btbetty · 03/01/2011 18:05

Violethill - you said what I was trying to say but very much more eloquently!

kelway · 03/01/2011 18:08

going to private school doesn't always guarantee that your off spring will do well in adult life. both my cousins only went private and neither found an even vaguely successful career whilst i can think with no effort of lots of people, myself included who faired much better than they did in career world all of which went to state schools.

btbetty · 03/01/2011 18:15

Kelway -totally agree with you.
For us it wasn't really about wanting a better education it was about wanting a decent level of education and unfortunately that was not available at our local school due to the demographic. Our son is around middle of the class and will probably always be BUT he isn't picking up bad speech and behaviour habits that he would at the state school option available.
Both DH and I went to state schools and we are fine (allegedly!)

Violethill · 03/01/2011 18:17

Agree - I am a firm believer that there is no 'perfect answer'; there are pros and cons to everything.

Interestingly, one of dd's school friends has a mother who has always worried excessively about every little detail of schooling - you know the type, fretting when her dd isn't top in an assessment etc. I could never understand it, as the school is good and gets excellent results. Turns out this woman went to private school herself, and the real issue is that she and her husband can't afford private school fees, and she's outside her comfort zone with sending her dd to a (very good) state school. Her dd is very bright and will do well (probably better than her mother actually, who doesn't have a career!). It just seems the supreme irony to me, that the mother had all that money spent on her, and its just made her fearful of anything other than private schooling.

Of course, this is just one example, but the fact is, there is an upside and downside to everything.

Cleofartra · 03/01/2011 18:28

"You've chosen a path that suits your family"

No I haven't. My dd is going to a school she's unhappy at. She's not being stretched academically and I don't think she'll reach her potential there. Unfortunately we didn't feel we had a real choice when it came to choosing her secondary school. She has gone to the only school we could get her in to. I'm sure she'll do well there, but she'd be happier and do better at a different school.

VioletHill - France and many other European countries don't have an education system which is as divided as ours, particularly along class lines.

"I believe very strongly that if you want something in life you have to work hard to pay for it"

TBH it's insulting when people insinuate that the only issue is whether you work hard enough or not. There are many, many families working their arses off in the UK who can't afford to shell out £10K a year in private school fees. The average income in the UK is only around 26K a year. Childcare, travel and housing costs are the highest in Europe.

Cleofartra · 03/01/2011 18:30

Violethill - my sons school is very good. Well resourced, good teachers. But there are 30 children in every class - plus many of the children have s/n, English as an additional language and behavioural difficulties. It does compromise the quality of education my boys are getting as their teachers simply don't have the time and energy to meet their individual needs, no matter how hard they try.