French teacher telling DD that she only doesn't believe in God because her Mother told her.

[ScienceDad]

Hello Mumsnetters, long time reader first time poster!

Am I being unreasonable in thinking that this teacher was way beyond the line in saying this? Here is some background, sorry in advance for the length, but I think it's quite interesting.

A while back, DD's cousin, who is 9, told her that she had to be good, or God, who watches them from the clouds, would punish her and send her to hell where she'd be hurt forever.

As you can imagine, this was very upsetting for a 4 year old girl, and when she asked us if there was a God in the clouds watching her, her mother and I, who are both intelligent athiests, told her not to worry about it, some people believe that there is but we don't, and worrying about it (as even religious folk should understand) is completely absurd for a 4 year old.

So fastforward a few weeks, and DD comes home from School (A very expensive, highly regarded private school, of which she is by far the top student in her class, as we were informed by her teacher at parents evening) Came home very upset after an after school French Lesson. While talking about Christmas DD was told that Christmas was about loving God, which, as you know how tactful a 4 year old can be, resulted in DD saying God wasn't real. Her French teacher in turn told her God was real, and she only doesn't believe in God because her Mother (My DW) said so.

I was fuming, to be honest, not only because it's the complete opposite of reality (not to make this a religeon debate, but surely the French teacher only took that stance because SHE had been told it as a child) but surely any mature adult would not correct a child on such a matter with no tact at all, especially when she is supposedly teaching in an expensive, non faith based school.

Sorry again for length, but AIBU?

I'd rather you apologised about how intelligent you claim to be, while being unable to spell.

And a choice between Christianity and Paganism just to celebrate Christmas? No I celebrate the social event that is modern day Christmas. I sing Christmas Carols that talk about God too, but then, I also sing about Santa in Carols too, doesn't mean I consider it anything other than quaint.

Dear OpenToLawSuits. I'm sorry I'm not apologising for the right things. Very Sorry.

ahem you're a hypocrite just like everyone else :).

You're forgiven, now I'm off to cause havoc elsewhere. As you were.

In these modern times, celebrating Christmas is not solely reserved for Christians, and it does not make you a hypocrite if you celebrate without being indoctrinated by the church.

Christmas has become a cultural celebration of family, giving and love. For Pagans this has a particular meaning to Christians another, but for the majority of the population on the country, its relevance has more to do with Santa and decorations than either the Sun or Jesus. I know atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Hindus and Jews who all celebrate Christmas, in much the same way as they celebrate the New Year or any other cultural festival.

If you believe that this festival should be reserved for Christians and Pagans, then you are the hypocrite, as even churches teach that Christmas is a time for all faiths, non-faiths and communities as a whole to celebrate.

That's a Christian forgiveness if ever I've seen one :)
You're forgiven too.

Then you are clearly a non believer who celebrates the birth of Jesus.

Point made.

Quattro, no, surely not UQD. Not with that spelling! :o

I celebrate happiness at Christmas. Not fakery. It's a wonderful life!

Nope. I am a non believer who celebrates the many traditions that make up the rich cultural heritage of this country. If we could do that without all these smug yet dim Christians who believe their gullibility is excuse for being ridiculous and rude (that's you btw. OTLS, not the others), then the whole celebration would be much more fun. I have no problem with Christians per se, but those who think their indoctrination makes everyone else wrong deserve to be told that they are in fact stupid.

Am I being unreasonable by having a laugh about the OP being ripped to shreds on their spelling, the day after an AIBU thread pronounced that picking on people's spelling and grammar was BU?

Total straw man thingymajig.

I celebrate Christmas, the Solstice, New Year.

I am not Christian, Pagan or Scottish.

I do it because it's fun, and I like it. Not a complicated concept.

Jesus is not ignored, we tell the story as a traditional story that is told at this time of year - with equal importance with the stories about Santa, a flying snowman and some fairies that live in the mountain, and the science of the Sun.

I shall henceforth call my celebrations something innoffensive, so as not to seem hypocritical. "Winterval" seems like a name that couldn't possibly go wrong.

The OP is being ripped to shreds yes - and deservedly so - but not solely because he can't spell.

It's because of the superiority complex I think

By the way is there any such word as 'Independancy' (sic)?

hello, can i wade in, haven't read past the first 20posts but looks like it's all kicked off..

i do have similar situation though so thought i could offer my POV

my dd nearly 4 also at private expensive pre-prep. i'm a non religious person but dh is muslim, my children are thus muslim too by birth (i don't argue about this they can make their own minds up when they're older )

in the run up to xmas dd was involoved in a school nativity and came home full of news of jesus and mary and stables etc,

my dh had a few moans about whether or not it was appropriate for dc to be exposed to all this blatant christianity but i really don't have a problem with it. we have all mostly been exposed to all sorts of religious beliefs through our childhoods and at school and have arrived at our own conclusions and i believe that's fine for my dc and we'll discuss anything and everything as questions present themselves naturally. above all respecting the dc's own views. as faith and beliefs are very personal and i wouldn't want to impose my own on anyone not even my dc.

my eldest dc is 18 now and went through a traditional public schooling. when i was a younger parent i was more stridently atheist but always reined in my own views so as not to trample on his. from a small age my ds was intrigued by religion/ churches/ god etc and so i trod the line of encouraging him to explore anything he was interested in whilst being quite open that i didn't have a lot of knowledge on the whole subject as i was not religious.

i usually take dc to a chistmas carol service as i think it's a jolly christmassy thing to do, i love a good sing and no harm will come of it!

lastly if you're new public schools you'll do well to dispell the notion that you're a customer of an expensive service and that 'your' employees would do well to act accordingly. public schools are most often full of tradition and whilst you're buying a place for your dd in that particular institution you're quite deluded if you think you'll have any influence upon their teaching or practises. you'll more likely be told to look elsewhere if you're not happy with the educational environment on offer.

as your dd is only 4 this is probably more about the shock that you as a parent have to overcome. your dd is an independant mind and will now hear other opinions than your own and you can not control how she will decipher them

It is possible to be intelligent AND a crap speller, you know... I know several gifted scientists whose spelling and grammar is dire.

It's also possible to celebrate a festival without believing in the stuff behind it (Halloween? Valentine's day?). But I do believe in the sun, though, if that's relevant

Or, y'know, the dignified and well-thought out explanation loopyloops gave. I vote for that.

TheLittleRaccoon, classy response. Really classy.

A reasoned and rational response to a situation like this is more likely to get listened to by the school, rather than a rant.

OP, YANBU. I don't believe schools or their communities are entitled to indoctrinate, nor do I think anyone should be sponsoring such a move. (And, yes, I know, it's a huge issue on MN about state sponsorship of churches. And I'm in the anti brigade.. it's not appropriate for taxpayers to support religious organisations IMO.)

If I were you I'd be taking this further once you were satisfied that you'd had both sides of the story.

Blimey, what a thread.

Of course one can celebrate Christmas without being a Christian or a pagan - the mid-winter festival occurs in every human society under all sorts of names. The early Christians just used a festival that was already there (however much you believe in Jesus he was NOT born on 25th December). I think they latched onto Saturnalia IIRC given Rome was the powerhouse of early Christianity. Christmas is just the name everyone uses in Western countries, whether they are Christians or not.

As for the French teacher (who may not actually be a qualified teacher) of course she was wrong. Stupid thing to say and v. good point that she'd probably be in a heap of trouble had she said it to a Muslim child.

Up to you whether you want to mention it to the school - I probably wouldn't bother, would be happy just explaining to ds that I thought the teacher was mistaken and people believe all sorts of different things.

Countless - in your situation I'd say it's not a bad thing - you're saying they can make up their minds where older and they'll only do that if they are exposed to a variety of opinions. My ds has three religions in his immediate family (I'm agnostic) and ensure that I balance out his df's religion (that dominates) with plenty of access to the other two and then also my 'on the fence' approach as he has years to make up his own mind.

It think the OP could do with a bit more of an open minded approach to his dd. Being a staunch non believer is a belief in itself ie what do you think happens when you die - an afterlife or not and if an afterlife, what sort? People have different views and if he imparts his very superior views on people who are not the same as him to his dd then she'll grow viewing people the same way.

OP - you say you're an 'intelligent athiest' but then go on to say you that surely the teacher took the stance she did because that's what she was told as a child. Quite an assumption.

Oh trust me, I have no intention of going into anything without both sides of any story.

Smarter people than I have fallen in love with the idea of God, it's not something I worry about, though I'll happily debate it with anyone who can keep a straight head.

As an adult it's possible to hold certain beliefs and act i ways that might seem contradictory. You can be an atheist who celebrates christmas or a Catholic who accepts the need for legal abortion etc. You can also enjoy starting arguments about it online debating the finer points of belief.

Four year old children have a much bigger problem with that.

You do sound a bit nouveau about the school too. Generally the more you pay the less a school will accept your imput. Unless you pay for a new wing

no, being a non-believer is not a belief. It's a lack of belief. There is a crucial difference. Atheists have all sorts of different belief systems i.e. philosophies and understanding of the world - the only thing they have in common is a lack of belief in God or gods.

"As I was raised Catholic and terrified (as most Catholic Children are)"

Therein lies your problem. You are projecting your past onto your child.

The French teacher and the cousin were both wrong to say those things to your DD, but that is life.

As others have said, chat with her about what other people believe, including other religions. But don't make it sound too OTT.

haha narkypuffin you're exactly right!

'You do sound a bit nouveau about the school too. Generally the more you pay the less a school will accept your imput. Unless you pay for a new wing'

probably not even then!!

this extends to political correctness towards muslim beliefs etc.. in my experience all parents would be expected to accept the school's established way of educating and no preciousness apologised to.

if i were to choose to send my dc to a staunchly catholic school for example, i would have to accept their indoctrination was part of the deal. i did look at 2 catholic secondary schools for ds, as they were brilliant beautiful schools with great rugby teams but i after a visit i knew they wouldn't suit ds

edam, i'm a non believer but i've found those who do identify themselves as atheists do have strong opinions about religious peoples beliefs and are often quick to ridicule and make derogatory comments about faith and all it's structures/stories etc

Just because the school doesn't have C of E or RC in the name doesn't mean it doesn't have a religious slant either. Check the foundation document or the governers' statement. The vast majority of uk independent schools consider themselves to have a CofE ethos.