to want to kick my DS into touch by throwing him out??

[pressurecooker]

DS is 19, and I love him to bits. I have been a single parent for many years and have 2 DC, DS and DD (2yrs old).

I can't talk to anyone in the family about this, because they rant and moan at DS, but support him wholeheartedly to mine and my DD's detriment.

Basically, the situation is all my fault, and I accept that, but now I am at a loss as to what to do to help DS grow up and take responsibility for his own life.

DS has lost his job and is unemployed atm, and is also doing a part time college course. Since he lost his job, he lays in bed until afternoon, because he stays awake until 3/4 am, and also he doesn't want to be near DD. He complains DD has dirty hands and he doesn't want DD messing up his clothes. When DD is scrupulously clean, he still doesn't want her near him, in case she thinks it's ok to be near him, then comes near him, or touches him at a later time when she has dirty hands.
He doesn't seem to know how to play or interact with DD, apart from telling her to leave him alone, get out of his room etc.

I understand DD can be tiring, but she is my little girl, and she doesn't think like a 19yr old, although my DS says he will treat her the same as anyone else he comes across, who are all young adults.
There is a great deal of resentment from DS to DD.

I cannot seem to get through to DS.

I support him totally, there is no financial contribution from DS at all. He spends his money on driving lessons, a mobile phone contract (which is in my mother's name), and going out enjoying himself.

He says he cant stand to be in the house for long, it drives him mad, which I can understand.

While I get no financial contribution from him, he also does very little to help around the house either. He wont do anything dirty like putting the bins out, or cleaning the toilet, he can't wash dishes (and even washes them in cold water unless I supervise him), he has recently begun to sweep floors, hoover upstairs and watch DD while I use the toilet, but he grumbles and moans about all these things.

I give him lifts when I can, and help him out in so many ways, I was taking him to work and back while he had his job. I have tried to help him sort his finances out, to the point he gave his bank card to me to try to pay off an overdraft, which we were having some success with, until he decided he could watch his money himself and now I have no idea whether he is still on the road to recovery or not.

If I try to make conversation with him, he will say 'What relevance is that to you?'

I just feel so unappreciated. He has free board and lodging, and extras like lifts and I even buy his bloody facial wash.

So in short, under duress and has to be asked every time, he will:

sweep floors
mop floors
cook simple dinners
dry washing up and put away
tidy his room
iron his clothes as and when he needs to
rarely make tea (I'm not having one so I'm not making one)
sort out my pc
a few more cant think at mo

He will not:

play with DD while I go to the toilet/shower
empty bins
clean toilets
scrape his own plates
wash his own pots
wash up at all
go near DD
help with gardening
go shopping with me to help (but will help me unload car when I get back)I find it almost impossible to shop with DD, she either has a full on tantrum from the second we get in the shop because I have made her sit in the trolley, or she runs full pelt all over the shop, so I ask DS to come to amuse DD while I am getting the things I need, and DS only has to come once a fortnight, but he makes such a fuss about it that I usually struggle on my own, because DS refuses pointblank in the end, and I need to shop, for DD and myself as well as DS.
lots more cant think at mo
pay anything towards his keep

It's all such a battle.

Please come tell me how I get through to him.

I lived with an abusive XP from when DS was 13 until he was 18 and it feels like exactly the same thing again, apart from DS does not steal from me.
lots more cant think at mo
pay anything towards his keep

I have to go out now, but will catch up later.

I always did everything for DS when he was younger (so I admit it is my fault) because I was made to do all the chores by my mother and grew up in a very violent abusive household, I just didn't want DS's childhood to be unhappy like mine was. Now it has backfired spectacularly.

When we get on, (when DD is in bed) we get on reasonable well.

Helppppppp!!!!

Very simple here. Tell him that as he is now an adult, you will treat him as such and expect him to do everything for himself. You will no longer sub him money at all and he has to pay a percentage of his income to you or buy his own food. Tell him that if he doesn't shape up and take on equal responsibility in the house, which he absolutely should being an adult, then it's time for him to move out. This includes treating his small sister as a human being.

He needs to move out
then he'll realise he has to do everything on his won't list
stop with the lifts
let him live his life independent to you

What The Visitor said.

+1

but you have to mean it about throwing him out, he will sense it, if you don't

he probably has no idea how much work you do, how much slog is involved in maintaining a home

I agree with TheVisitor. Treat him as an adult and set out what you expect him to do. Put an actual calendar deadline on it as well. Probation period until, say, 1st March by which time he has to have either shaped up at home or have got his own place.

It's unfortunate, but sometimes you have to make home more unpleasant before they move out!

The answer to this dilemma is so obvious, until one actually has a teen/adult child.

If you are happy to keep him in your home, then you need to start living by rulles that will save your sanity.

Firstly, your ds is clearly not bonded to your dd. It would be, in my opinion, detrimental to her self esteem, etc., to have him look after her at any stage. He doesn't care about her in the way you do, he is giving off nasty signals towards her, so stop expecting that he will help out.

She is just doing the normal 2 year old stuff. It won't last forever, however, his effect on her could.

He does need to contribute financially, even if it is a silly, nominal sum. I would set a percentage (so that it goes up when he earns). He may argue, but be firm. It will still be less than he would pay if supporting himself elsewhere.

You are not to blame for his behaviour. He is an adult and chosing to behave the way he does.

Good luck.

And well done for starting to sort this!

If you do throw him out, make sure you get it in his head he won't be able to find a girlfriend these days to do all the dirty stuff for him.

He likely could, but it might put him off trying.

I don't have a teenage child myself, but my siblings are 20 years old and 18 years old, so I see a bit of them in your OP.

I agree with the other posters saying that he needs to start acting more mature and helping. Also, I agree that he and your DD need to start having more bonding.

However, I think it might backfire for you to suddenly demand he a) moves out or b) starts doing the lionshare of chores. I think the way to make a success of this is to start slowly and over a month period build it up.

He does sound like a teenager - moody, selfish, sullen. I think you seem like a great mum and hopefully if you're confident and persistant things will change for the better. He might shout, sulk and be annoyed for a while, but in the end he needs to learn to grow up.

I can sort of understand a 19year old lad is not going to have much in common with a 2 year old child.. its his sibling, not his own daughter. She isnt his responsibility, and if anything he is probably jealous of her too. He has been an only child all his life, so it was probably a big shock to suddenly not be the only one.

I dont think you can expect him to help with her childcare, its not his responsibility.

He should be paying towards his keep, and looking for a job, but where would he go if you kick him out?

Agree with charliesmummy.

I would approach this in a positive way - you have alot more power than simply thinking all you can do is 'chuck him out'. If you feel unappreciated, then STOP giving him lifts, buying his facial wash and all the million other things that you do.

It will actually be a GOOD thing for him to stop this, because he is an adult now and needs to learn to do things for himself.

I agree that you shouldn't expect any childcare from him, he is clearly very resentful of your DD so it's only going to heighten emotions if he feels expectation on that score. And it's not his responsibility, it's yours.

Don't do laundry for him - he can do his now he's a grown up.

Don't cook for him unless he's in for the meal at the same time you're having it.

He seems to have issues re the washing/dirt stuff. Have you any idea why? Is he anxious otherwise at all?

Agree with charliesmummy.

You can quite reasonably expect him to contribute financially, do his own washing up etc

You cannot expect him to play with, or provide childcare for, his sister. That's not on. It would be a bonus if he wanted to, but it can't be an expectation.

I would imagine a 17 year age gap is very difficult - they clearly have nothing in common.

Deal with the things you can control though

Whilst agreeing that your DS does need to pull his weight more, I can't help but feel a bit sorry for him.

I would imagine your abusive ex may have had quite a negative impact on him and his self-esteem growing up. He now has had to adjust to a demanding sibling.

Having said that, you need to lay some firm boundaries and he does have the option to help out or move out. Not very fair to expect him to help out much with his sister- 2 year olds try the patience of most of us at the best of times!

I expect my 18 year old to help with his siblings occasionally, and see no problem with that. It teaches responsibility.

Is it possible that

a) he is jealous of his LS because she doesn't have the same childhood landscape that he did (abusive father figure wise)

b) there is some "big gap" sibling rivalry going on and he sub consciously fears rejection from you, so is doing his damnedest to make the Sword of Damocles fall on him asap, cos he can't cope with (his perception that he is) living with it hanging over him ?

I did the "just provoke her constantly so she gets it over with and cuts the thread, letting the sword fall" thing as a teen (for different reasons, I didn't have a tiny sib). I understand why my mum reacted with strategies aimed at getting teens with a stable family background to get over the overgrown toddler bit, grow up and take responsibility. Not least cos I did nothing to communicate what was really going on in my head. But what it did was cement my belief that the sword had been there all along and her "rejection" of me was always a foregone conclusion.

With hindsight it was never there at all, but over the years that perceived rejection hung over our relationship for at least a decade.

I carried on being a "a bit damaged" teenager (and getting into a right mess) for ages after leaving home, so it didn't cure me as such.

Although to be fair, at least she didn't have it going on in her living room when she needed that kind of additional strain the least along with the significant concern about the impact it could have on my brother and sister.

I honestly don't know what to suggest other than bringing in some kind of outside help in unpicking what might going on under the surface. But in an admittedly unhelpful fashion, I have no idea how realistic a possibility that is. And I can absolutely see why you are desperate for some kind of more immediate solutions that will give both you and the little one some relief and the hope that it will jump start him into a different mind set.

"I expect my 18 year old to help with his siblings occasionally, and see no problem with that. It teaches responsibility."

A lot of things teach responsibility though - you don't need to use looking after/helping with siblings as a way to teach it.

I think this is a really important point, because siblings need to recognise that they are equal beings, IYSWIM. By that, I don't mean they should always be treated in exactly the same way, because clearly siblings of widely different ages have different needs/abilities. But I believe its crucial that the relationship between siblings is exactly that - a sibling relationship, not with one being expected to entertain, or take responsibility for, another - that's a parental role.
I always expected my children to play nicely with eachother (when they chose to play together) and to treat each other fairly, and considerately. But I would never put them in a position where they had to 'look after' each other. I know a few young people who are expected to do that for much younger siblings, and it can lead to untold resentment.

She is only asking him to watch her whilst she goes to the toilet! He is not 13 and living under his Mother's roof he should at least pretend or make some effort with the child.

He is not 13. He is also living under his Mother's roof...

silly phone

You don't need to have someone else watch a 2 year old while you go to the toilet though. How does she manage if the 19 yr old is out?! How do other people manage to go to the loo with two or three toddlers?! There are ways around it - put the toddler somewhere safe/take them with you. Its a few minutes.

For longer periods of time, when she wants a bath, or time to herself - well, as I said, I think if an older sibling wants to help out, thats a bonus, but its not something to be expected.

Financial input to the household, clearing up after himself, laundry, etc - yes yes yes

But you can't force someone to care about/want to be with a sibling. Clearly there is a wide gulf there (I agree with others that the ds probably feels resentful and damaged by his experience with the abusive ex) and I don't think you solve that by trying to force a relationship.

Its time for him to move out.

Agree with theVisitor. You need to lay down some very clear ground rules and stick to them like glue.

I wouldn't chuck him out, though.

I don't see why she should particularly play with your DD, he didn't choose to have her, you did.

I wouldn't chuck him out ..and I wouldn't expect him to look after his sister either

Well, my 18 year old babysits for me, so shoot me. I don't pay him for it either. I don't expect him to sit down and play with them, but I don't see there being a problem if her DS looks after his sister for half an hour whilst the OP has a bath!

I feel quite sorry for him, I think you need to try and see things from his point of view.

It does sound like he needs to take some responsibility for himself, but that's something you should have spent the last 19 years thinking about. It's not fair for you do do everything for him and then completely change your expectations because you decided to have a baby.

She is your responsibility, not his. You shouldn't expect him to look after her, and you shouldn't be expecting an automatic bond.

My older ones babysat their younger siblings for me because they wanted too..if they hadn't wanted too that would have been fine