to want to kick my DS into touch by throwing him out??

[pressurecooker]

DS is 19, and I love him to bits. I have been a single parent for many years and have 2 DC, DS and DD (2yrs old).

I can't talk to anyone in the family about this, because they rant and moan at DS, but support him wholeheartedly to mine and my DD's detriment.

Basically, the situation is all my fault, and I accept that, but now I am at a loss as to what to do to help DS grow up and take responsibility for his own life.

DS has lost his job and is unemployed atm, and is also doing a part time college course. Since he lost his job, he lays in bed until afternoon, because he stays awake until 3/4 am, and also he doesn't want to be near DD. He complains DD has dirty hands and he doesn't want DD messing up his clothes. When DD is scrupulously clean, he still doesn't want her near him, in case she thinks it's ok to be near him, then comes near him, or touches him at a later time when she has dirty hands.
He doesn't seem to know how to play or interact with DD, apart from telling her to leave him alone, get out of his room etc.

I understand DD can be tiring, but she is my little girl, and she doesn't think like a 19yr old, although my DS says he will treat her the same as anyone else he comes across, who are all young adults.
There is a great deal of resentment from DS to DD.

I cannot seem to get through to DS.

I support him totally, there is no financial contribution from DS at all. He spends his money on driving lessons, a mobile phone contract (which is in my mother's name), and going out enjoying himself.

He says he cant stand to be in the house for long, it drives him mad, which I can understand.

While I get no financial contribution from him, he also does very little to help around the house either. He wont do anything dirty like putting the bins out, or cleaning the toilet, he can't wash dishes (and even washes them in cold water unless I supervise him), he has recently begun to sweep floors, hoover upstairs and watch DD while I use the toilet, but he grumbles and moans about all these things.

I give him lifts when I can, and help him out in so many ways, I was taking him to work and back while he had his job. I have tried to help him sort his finances out, to the point he gave his bank card to me to try to pay off an overdraft, which we were having some success with, until he decided he could watch his money himself and now I have no idea whether he is still on the road to recovery or not.

If I try to make conversation with him, he will say 'What relevance is that to you?'

I just feel so unappreciated. He has free board and lodging, and extras like lifts and I even buy his bloody facial wash.

So in short, under duress and has to be asked every time, he will:

sweep floors
mop floors
cook simple dinners
dry washing up and put away
tidy his room
iron his clothes as and when he needs to
rarely make tea (I'm not having one so I'm not making one)
sort out my pc
a few more cant think at mo

He will not:

play with DD while I go to the toilet/shower
empty bins
clean toilets
scrape his own plates
wash his own pots
wash up at all
go near DD
help with gardening
go shopping with me to help (but will help me unload car when I get back)I find it almost impossible to shop with DD, she either has a full on tantrum from the second we get in the shop because I have made her sit in the trolley, or she runs full pelt all over the shop, so I ask DS to come to amuse DD while I am getting the things I need, and DS only has to come once a fortnight, but he makes such a fuss about it that I usually struggle on my own, because DS refuses pointblank in the end, and I need to shop, for DD and myself as well as DS.
lots more cant think at mo
pay anything towards his keep

It's all such a battle.

Please come tell me how I get through to him.

I lived with an abusive XP from when DS was 13 until he was 18 and it feels like exactly the same thing again, apart from DS does not steal from me.
lots more cant think at mo
pay anything towards his keep

I have to go out now, but will catch up later.

I always did everything for DS when he was younger (so I admit it is my fault) because I was made to do all the chores by my mother and grew up in a very violent abusive household, I just didn't want DS's childhood to be unhappy like mine was. Now it has backfired spectacularly.

When we get on, (when DD is in bed) we get on reasonable well.

Helppppppp!!!!

Oh and I don't do his washing, I make him load and unload the dishwasher, cook his own food and various other things. He knows I will go on strike with the stuff he wants me to do if he doesn't do some of the chores

I would be worried about the cleanliness issues/history of abuse - IMO he needs some counselling or professional help with this.

No reason for him to loaf around in bed until late afternoon though, or for not setting some ground rules for how he is in your house. He should also be paying you something, to the best of his ability. He needs some tough and he needs some love.

My brother is now in his mid-twenties and still living with our mother. He treats my mum like an unpaid servant, steals from her and threatens her if she doesn't buy him alcohol and cigarettes, and give him money to go out. My mother is now in a mess because she feels guilty that her and my dad split up when my brother and I were teenagers, so she won't kick him out, but is being constantly downtrodden by him. As her daughter, I find it unbearable. He hasn't ever had a proper job and he left school at 16. Currently he hasn't worked for around 4 years, can't be bothered to claim benefits, and blames everyone else for his "problems", whilst expecting the world on a plate for doing nothing.

I have been telling her to throw him out for the last few years, but she won't. She says she wants to, but it has gotten to the stage where she is too scared to because she thinks he may break in, break windows, etc, if he tries. She won't call the police on him, even though my dad has had to several times because of his out-of-control drunken and sullen behaviour. Throwing him out would really be the best thing for him, but she is crippled by her own kindness.

Obviously your DS is not as bad as this, but in my opinion, it wouldn't be the worst thing to throw him out if you really feel that it is at the point where you feel that he may benefit from it. He is old enough to take responsibility for himself, and it sounds, from what you have written, as though his behaviour is completely disrepectful as well as lazy. The more my mum did for my brother, the worse he became, and it has spiraled into a genuinely horrible situation - I hope you manage to resolve it so that things don't get worse.

Sorry I have just read back and seen the bit about living with an abusive partner. I can't give any advice on how you might go about dealing with the effects of this on him, as I have never raised a teenager, but other posters may have advice (such as counselling?). I did just want to add that even though you probably feel guilty for allowing your abusive XP to be in your DSs life for 5 years, please do not let your guilt allow your DS to get away with this behaviour and indulging him with pleasant "extras" (lifts everywhere, buying his toiletries - this is how it started with my mum and brother). Even though it may absolve your guilt, it really isn't good for him. It isn't a means of "fixing" him, it will just make him think he can abuse your kindness even further.

olderyetwiser Sorry, but 19 year olds are still just children, really. Yes, perhaps, if they are allowed to act like children. But actually they are adults, and treating them like children will not do them any favours.

A couple of really dodgy sentences above, forgive me, about to pass out from the lurgy, but you get my drift.

Thank you for all your replies. I will try to cover as much as I can remember from all of the replies so far.

XP was abusive emotionally, financially and mentally from about 6 months after we started seeing each other, DD was born and I threw XP out when DD was 6 months old.

DS has spent time living with his GM, because he said it was closer to his job and college and his GM wanted him there, she was lonely. Whilst at his GM's, DS didn't help at all, GM waited on him hand and foot, bought him alcohol, and gave him money, basically doted on him. He responded by contributing neither time or money, and brought friends home after telling them they could stay the night. GM had never laid eyes on these big burly men in her life.
I should also add that GM is disabled. GM reached end of her tether, and DS then decided to come home, with promises that it would be different at home.

I can see a different side to it now I have read the replies, and I take on board what everyone has said about the effect of the abusive XP on DS, and that I am wrong to ask DS to watch DD while I use the toilet/shower. I do cope when DS is in bed or not indoors. I have a few problems in the toilet dept (collapsed once) but I can see it is not DS's responsibility.

I suppose part of my problem is that DS appears to take no responsibility. I try to ask him to contribute in small ways, which I have been trying to do for a while, and it has built up into all the things I mentioned. At first, he was loathe to put the kettle on.
He does do some things when I ask him, and for that I am grateful.

As well as this, DS doesn't take much responsibility for himself imo.
He will happily get himself ready to go out, and spend boozy weekends with his friends, but that seems to be where his thoughts end. He cannot seem to forward think.

EG: He doesn't have any idea of when he next signs on, because he doesn't think to check his JSA card. He never has enough bus fare to get to Jobcentre to sign on, because he has spent it all on bank charges and going out.
He will not answer the landline phone, even if he is sitting right next to it, he doesn't even pass the phone over to me. He doesn't think.
He books 2 hr driving lessons, then cancels 10 minutes beforehand because he cant afford it, then does the same thing again a week later and on and on.
He will not make an appt to see the Dr, no matter how ill he gets, same goes for dentist.
He has left the cooker on after cooking late at night, and doesn't understand why this worries me and I check he has turned it off, he just says it will be okay
He doesn't think to charge his phone.
He never ever thought his employer would sack him, even though he had had warnings and was breaking every rule he didnt agree with.
DS claims he is a logical person, and AFAHC if he doesn't see the logic to something, he refuses to do it, or give it any thought.

He doesn't seem to remember that for me to give him a lift, I need to get myself and DD ready, and if he only tells me 20 minutes before he needs to be 15 miles away, I cannot get him there on time. He repeats this every week.

I truly feel that some DC sink and some swim, and DS, I feel would sink if he was left to his own devices.
I guess I wanted to show him just how easy he has got it at home, because telling him sure isn't working.

I wish he would think more.

He seems to have many friends, and gets along with them well, but he freely admits that he doesn't get on with women that well. He doesn't want his friends to bring their g/f's on nights out, has never had a relationship that lasted much more than a few weeks, and seems to have a much lower view of women than of men.

I want him to be independent, but right now, I cannot imagine how he would ever cope on his own. He wont even clean up his own mess in the toilet.

Today, he kindly informed me that he had vomited on the clothes he was wearing last night. I asked him why he was telling me, and he said 'Because I don't want you to be surprised when you take the clothes out of the bag to wash them'
I told him I would not be washing them, he was quite capable of washing them himself. He reminds me that he does not know how to operate the washing machine, and how is he supposed to scrape the vomit off first, or shall he just put it in the washing machine?

I have shown him umpteen times how to operate the washing machine. He claims he cannot remember.

I am worried that DS will never grow out of this stage and will be unable to form a lasting loving relationship in the future. (He has told me he would like to settle down one day and have DC himself, but in his opinion, it will be the woman's responsibility to bring the DC up, and he will be the breadwinner. I have tried to tell him that it doesn't always work out that way, but he insists that is the only way it will work, because he does not like little children at all.

To the poster who said I should not have had my DC 17 years apart, I did not have a relationship until I met XP. Should I have not had more DC because my DS was 13 when I met XP?

DS father and I split before DS was born, they have very little contact. I did not have another relationship until DS was 13.

pressurecooker has your ds always been like this (poor organisational skills, judgment issues etc) or is this more recent? I as because if you were describing a much younger child I'd wonder if there were any special needs perhaps (my ds who is dyslexic has organisational issues and is also quite impulsive). If it's more recent then along with the OCd tendencies you described a bit earlier I'd really wonder if some mental health support would help? Alternately is it possible that he is using drugs (high strength pot can cause mental health issues in young men). Perhaps a support line like Parentline might be helpful - I see that they have special website on teenagers: www.gotateenager.org.uk/

Pressurecooker - I am on the fence I'm sorry :(

On one hand I'm quite tempted to say 'Tell him what you expect of him and if he wont do it, he can move out' yet on the other hand he does seem to have been very affected by both your previous relationship and by you having DD.

In your situation I would tell him that you want to work things out with him, that you can't & wont live like this. That he has to go with you to his GP & get some counselling. Tell him this is not optional - explain to him that you feel he's been affected by those things and that you need to sort it out.

Although I wouldn't say anything to him, it's not fair on DD to grow up in this environment and whilst he is your son and you love him and he needs help - you have to look out for your DD who is only very little and could be very damaged living with him acting like this.

It's a shit situation you are in :(

Thank you Nooka

DS has always had poor organisational skills tbh. It was the school who first pointed it out to me. He has always found it difficult to organise himself, and as such, I have spent my time helping him, reminding him of the things he should be doing.
He forgets things too.
DS was given extra support at school, and was just below statement level.
I am concerned about the OCD tendencies. I do not ask him to do the dirty jobs, because I am trying to compromise with him and understand how he feels, but it does get tiring tbh.
DS has made it clear in the past and quite recently that AFAHC asking for help professionally is considered a sign of weakness and he will never participate in help from medical professionals unless it was a physical injury. Besides, he sees nothing wrong with the way he is. He does not claim to be perfect, but he does not see anything wrong in how he sees others or their situations.
DS also believes many things are just hype, he doesn't believe the news is real, he believes it is just sensationalist crap, and all news is a tiny story blown out of proportion.

I was discussing a news article a few weeks ago that I thought might interest him, about a man who had been attacked by a shark, but DS was absolutely convinced it was not true, that the papers were fabricating it to sell papers.

DS has dabbled in drugs, but is completely open about this, which is surprising tbh, because he is very closed when it comes to anything else, to the point where I find it difficult to make conversation with him sometimes.
I'll ask 'Did you have a good day/night?'
DS replies, with an exasperated look on his face 'What relevance is it to you? I don't talk about my life outside the house with you. My friends, work, and family are separate and I don't mix any'

Thank you for the telephone number. I will ring that number as soon as DS is out of the house.

Forgot to add that DS also sees everyones circumstances in a very black and white way, and he has repeatedly told me that in his opinion, everyone only has themselves to blame if their lives are shit, no matter what reason their lives are shit.

He doesn't believe in luck, good or bad.

PC - without meeting him it's hard to know really, he could just be an awkward arse who needs kicking out to grow up, but from what you have said, he sounds to me like he has some serious issues. I'm glad you are going to ring Parentline - I hope you get some help. If not then try your GP, childline, NSPCC etc although he's not a child as such anymore, they may still be able to help you.

Lotterywinnersonacid Your post is exactly what I don't want to happen.
I feel for your mother and father so much. I also feel your frustration too.
Do you think your DB could cope if your mother threw him out?

I can't read all your thread, pressurecooker, because the general timbre of it upsets me a lot. I hope some others have pointed out the following:

He is a teenage boy, you can expect bolshiness. It's part of the natural separation process.

He had his mum all to himself in childhood. Then, from 13 to 18 - just as he's entering adolescence and becoming a man - a male role model entered his life. This man was abusive. The child is most certainly going to find this confusing and traumatic.

The abusive ex only left a year ago.

At the very time when XP was, presumably, most abusive - the final year - and as DS reached majority - you had a new baby, which required all of your loving attention.

I'm not at all surprised the poor bugger's confused. I am NOT 'blaming' you for this - such things happen - but I would certainly blame you for the ills that may befall DS if you abandon him now. He needs your help, not rejection.

I don't actually think he's doing all that badly. I know many 19-year-olds who never clean floors or do ironing, grumbling or otherwise. Can't you give him a bit more care & attention, praise him for what he does well, etc, etc?

Sure, he should pay something towards his keep, if he's earning at all. Perhaps he could shop for the meal he cooks once a week? I don't see what's wrong with a "very simple" meal, that ain't bad at 19yo!

Perhaps I should have explained, your thread upsets me because my parents threw me out at 18. Their action (and general attitude towards me, their own child) led me to make some very bad choices in the years that followed, and affected my psychologically throughout my life until I entered therapy. I don't want you to do this to your son.

I do have grown sons and one lives at home and attends college.

We expect him to be polite and civil, which he is. His chores are keep downstairs clean, as it is his area, including the bathroom, which only he uses. I usually have to ask him to vacumn and clean his bathroom, but he does it without complaint.
Care for his pets.
Unload dishwasher
Does own laundry
Put out garage, recycle etc.
Mow lawn/shovel snow. Yard work as requested
He is forgetful and doesn't mind his room having piles of clothing around.
He will do anything I ask, and is very kind and caring. When we are doing a DIY project he always is a part of it. He will drive me anywhere I need to go. He uses our old car, which we pay for gas etc., but when he gets a job, he will be responsible for it. Him driving is a huge help for us, as I can't and it is nice to not have to take a bus everywhere when dh is at work.

I think if your son wasn't against the baby so much, and was polite to you when you ask him things, you wouldn't feel so badly?

I would tell him the following. He has to speak to you nicely, if you ask him how his day was, he is to say "It was fine" or something, not ask you if it is relevant for you to know.
Do his own laundry.
The rest seem to be his personality. He doesn't seem that bad to me, although his looking down upon women isn't good at all.

He needs to keep appointments, our sons driving instructor would have charged a partial payment for those last minute cancellations. Perhaps an idea would be, when he has enough money for a driving lesson saved, to give it to you to hold on to, and not to book the lesson until he has done that? He needs a little self disipline.
There are much worse kids out there, that's for sure. He sounds like he has a lot of good points as well, he is in school and is reasonably human, not blaring music, or disrespecting the house.
He may like little children one day when older, many people do not like them a lot.

If you were to suggest you go out for a meal, or a film with him, would he like that? Do you watch tv together, or do things together, like vacation, or attend events ever?

It genuinely doesn't sound like your son could look after himself if you were to leave him now.

Please sek help for both of you, you to deal with the situation, him to learn life skills. If he turns out to be autistic or to have genuine mental issues please don't abandon him, get him in to sheltered acccomadation where someone can help him to learn to do these things

i feel quite sad for your DS. i think Grace has summed up his recent experiences very well: the abusive step parent, the new baby etc. i'm not surprised he has not bonded very well with his sister, she may well represent to him what has gone wrong in his life.

you also describe your Ds' behaviour as being the same as the abusive ex minus the theft, which worries me. you do not have a lot of positive things to say about your DS, you are tarring him with the abusive brush when he has not bonded well with his sister, displays ocd tendencies and gives a limited contribution around the house. with children it's important to compliment/praise much more than criticise/reprimand; your DS is still young, yet like every human being he needs positive affirmation.

i really think you need to remember that your DS has had some bad experiences, at a time when he would have been at his most sensitive, it's no wonder he is holding himself back.

from your post he clearly does have positive attributes: he has survived a difficult childhood, and despite holding himself back from you he is still there, living with you. i don't want to point the finger, as i have been in abusive relationships myself, but do not underestimate the effect this will have had on your DS and on his faith in you. you can repair this by seeing the good in him, and also by being firm regarding chores around the house.

about the chores around the house: if he cannot remember how to use the washing machine write down some instructions! house rules to include scraping your plate, and maybe to wash up a few times each week (buy him gloves if he really cannot touch the plates). yes he may be a young adult but it is not his responsibility to care for his sister, and an expectation for him to do so stands in the way of him bonding with her.

i hope you, your DS and your DD get back on track soon

Hi, I have a similar situation with daughter age 21 (at uni) son 19 at home and miss mayhem now 4.

My son does help out with littlest, and is a brilliant big bruv. he also does a bit around the house if I ask, and I've always made it clear that he is expected to do housework. We kind of have 2 relationships at the same time, IYSWIM, as we can talk adult to adult, share the housework, and he knows I need and appreciate his help. At the same time I'm still his mum, and am available for advice, hugs, and support like staying up till midnight to help with UCAS forms, buying him a suit for the interview, lifts, waking him up to get to school (he's doing a 3rd year in 6th form). We have lived through similar stuff to you as I split with the eldest 2s drunken dad when DS was a baby, then got into a turbulent relationship with littlest's dad when DS was a teenager, ending with police called 2 years ago. So we've had to talk lots about what my mistakes have meant for him.

The person who's most important here tho is your daughter, because your son is an adult. If your son lives with you he is an important man in her life, whether he likes it or not, and unless he is willing to be part of making her childhood lovely, then maybe he can't be there anymore. He needs to think about what effect his behaviour is having on her. Perhaps he has had some bad examples of how men behave around children? Are there older men in his life who can talk to him about some of this stuff and help him grow up a bit? Ok, 2 year olds can be annoying, maybe you need to keep her out of his room and accept that he doesn't want to babysit much, but you have to insist that he is nice to her when he's around. I would say that the appropriate reaction for a 19 year old man to have to a sticky toddler is 'urgh' but then to wipe her hands and be willing to play for a few minutes.

It sounds like he's not happy either and maybe you need to talk about what his plan is for the next couple of years and what support he needs from you to achieve it. If he does want to move out (and it sounds like he might) than maybe that support would be help to get up for college, find and keep a new job, giving him lifts, and not charging him much keep so he can save for a deposit and learn to drive (but not so he can go out every night!). In return you can ask for the support you need- being nice to his sis, giving you a break occasionally, and doing a reasonable amount of housework. Oh and if he wants a say in what's bought he has to come to the supermarket. Maybe you need to get family mediation? I think the key with my lad is to make sure he knows I appreciate everything he does do, he knows he's my right hand man, and is proud of being a 'Good Man' and a 'Responsible Adult' not like littlest's dad. I try to ask for his help not demand or nag, too, which is difficult when I'm sleep deprived and he's lain in bed till noon! Sounds like your lad is being about as useful round the house as most 19 year olds, he's just not being as much help as you need in your situation! Hope that helps,

'unless he is willing to be part of making her childhood lovely, then maybe he can't be there anymore. He needs to think about what effect his behaviour is having on her. Perhaps he has had some bad examples of how men behave around children?'

Did you read the OP thoroughly?
Where this boy lived with an abusive male for five years of his childhood?
And now, if he can't make another child's life lovely, he gets binned? That's your advice?
Unbelievable.

YABU.

Your son has had a horrible time throughout his teenage years and quite frankly it sounds to me as though you treat all his behaviour as unreasonable yet nothing your DD ever does is wrong. I'll put money on your son feeling this way too. :(

Kicking him out would just be the cherry on the cake of his abusive childhood.