to want to kick my DS into touch by throwing him out??

[pressurecooker]

DS is 19, and I love him to bits. I have been a single parent for many years and have 2 DC, DS and DD (2yrs old).

I can't talk to anyone in the family about this, because they rant and moan at DS, but support him wholeheartedly to mine and my DD's detriment.

Basically, the situation is all my fault, and I accept that, but now I am at a loss as to what to do to help DS grow up and take responsibility for his own life.

DS has lost his job and is unemployed atm, and is also doing a part time college course. Since he lost his job, he lays in bed until afternoon, because he stays awake until 3/4 am, and also he doesn't want to be near DD. He complains DD has dirty hands and he doesn't want DD messing up his clothes. When DD is scrupulously clean, he still doesn't want her near him, in case she thinks it's ok to be near him, then comes near him, or touches him at a later time when she has dirty hands.
He doesn't seem to know how to play or interact with DD, apart from telling her to leave him alone, get out of his room etc.

I understand DD can be tiring, but she is my little girl, and she doesn't think like a 19yr old, although my DS says he will treat her the same as anyone else he comes across, who are all young adults.
There is a great deal of resentment from DS to DD.

I cannot seem to get through to DS.

I support him totally, there is no financial contribution from DS at all. He spends his money on driving lessons, a mobile phone contract (which is in my mother's name), and going out enjoying himself.

He says he cant stand to be in the house for long, it drives him mad, which I can understand.

While I get no financial contribution from him, he also does very little to help around the house either. He wont do anything dirty like putting the bins out, or cleaning the toilet, he can't wash dishes (and even washes them in cold water unless I supervise him), he has recently begun to sweep floors, hoover upstairs and watch DD while I use the toilet, but he grumbles and moans about all these things.

I give him lifts when I can, and help him out in so many ways, I was taking him to work and back while he had his job. I have tried to help him sort his finances out, to the point he gave his bank card to me to try to pay off an overdraft, which we were having some success with, until he decided he could watch his money himself and now I have no idea whether he is still on the road to recovery or not.

If I try to make conversation with him, he will say 'What relevance is that to you?'

I just feel so unappreciated. He has free board and lodging, and extras like lifts and I even buy his bloody facial wash.

So in short, under duress and has to be asked every time, he will:

sweep floors
mop floors
cook simple dinners
dry washing up and put away
tidy his room
iron his clothes as and when he needs to
rarely make tea (I'm not having one so I'm not making one)
sort out my pc
a few more cant think at mo

He will not:

play with DD while I go to the toilet/shower
empty bins
clean toilets
scrape his own plates
wash his own pots
wash up at all
go near DD
help with gardening
go shopping with me to help (but will help me unload car when I get back)I find it almost impossible to shop with DD, she either has a full on tantrum from the second we get in the shop because I have made her sit in the trolley, or she runs full pelt all over the shop, so I ask DS to come to amuse DD while I am getting the things I need, and DS only has to come once a fortnight, but he makes such a fuss about it that I usually struggle on my own, because DS refuses pointblank in the end, and I need to shop, for DD and myself as well as DS.
lots more cant think at mo
pay anything towards his keep

It's all such a battle.

Please come tell me how I get through to him.

I lived with an abusive XP from when DS was 13 until he was 18 and it feels like exactly the same thing again, apart from DS does not steal from me.
lots more cant think at mo
pay anything towards his keep

I have to go out now, but will catch up later.

I always did everything for DS when he was younger (so I admit it is my fault) because I was made to do all the chores by my mother and grew up in a very violent abusive household, I just didn't want DS's childhood to be unhappy like mine was. Now it has backfired spectacularly.

When we get on, (when DD is in bed) we get on reasonable well.

Helppppppp!!!!

Thanks to everyone for all your help, and it is really really helpful to read all these posts.
DS is not a bad lad, and if I have made him out to be, I regret that.
I love him with all my heart. I tell him all the time that he is a special wonderful person because he is.
We were very close at one time, and I hope we can regain some of that in time.

I wont throw him out now I have read these posts, because I want to rebuild our relationship, not just throw it down the toilet.

AlpinePony I do discipline my DD when she annoys DS, by throwing her books at him or flinging herself around on him by removing her from the situation and firmly saying No, we don't treat people that way. DS does push DD away from him though, throws her toys across the room when she brings them to him, has roared in her face, and doesn't speak to DD much, prefering to manouvere(sp) her away from him, and now he finds she is trying to do the same to him. DS understands she is copying him, so I am relieved he can understand that, but obviously it still makes DS angry. I don't honestly believe my DD does nothing wrong, but I appreciate DD is 2.
Mind you, DS resents anything I ask him to do if it benefits DD, including being a little quieter when DD is in bed and he is upstairs. DD is a light sleeper. On saying that, DS is quiet upstairs, which I am thankful for, and he does tell me that I lick DD arse so I will bear in mind what you have said.

I suppose my greatest fear is that DS will never be able to be look after himself, and will need to be looked after his whole life, whilst never appreciating the help he gets. Maybe I am jumping the gun a little there.

I am also fearful of the message DD is getting from DS, and what it might teach her about men. DD does see her father sometimes but it is DS who she sees the most, and she desperately wants to interact with him. I do not know how to improve their relationship at all. I understand how putting them together is not helping now from these posts, but I am not sure what to do to help their relationship to blossom. I am concerned it will never change and DS will always feel this way about DD.

maryz It was thought when DS first went to school, that he had autistic tendencies, but this was ruled out by an Ed Psych.

IMO, DS has always found it difficult to interact with people, but he has many friends now and seems to get along with people very well. He has a very busy social life.
There was a time when he was a small boy when I thought he would never be able to make more than one or two friends, I thought he would be a loner his whole life so I am glad to see he has so many friends now.

Thank you for your post Maryz I am beginning to see my situation from a different angle, and realise that DS may need the help, even if he is not prepared to admit that he does. I will have a chat with him, and try to be more patient.

XP was abusive emotionally, financially and mentally from about 6 months after we started seeing each other, DD was born and I threw XP out when DD was 6 months old

I'm having trouble understanding why you had a child with him in the first place...and why it took you 5 years to get rid of him?

Perhaps your son feels that you weren't willing to get rid of him for his sake, but you were for the sake of your new baby?

He pushes DD?

This is totally not on and has to stop, extenuating circumstances or not.

I really feel for you in this situation. There are a lot of complicated overlapping issues here.

when my DS was referred to CAMHS they asked me and his teachers to complete a questionnaire (to highlight conditions such as autism). the counsellor telephoned me straight away when she received the results because they were so different. the school had decribed a child close to autism, where as i had described a lively, interactive child.

the thing is that when my DS feels worried, stressed or threatened he does shut down and display some autistic traits. these traits are a defence mechanism.

maybe your DS was doing the same?

Is he too old for CAMHS?

Could he go back to your Mums?

He is showing some autistic traits and definatly needs some therapy for the past trauma.

His attitude to women is ringing alarm bells for me. Has he ever pushed/hit you, shouted and swore or manipulated/blackmailed you?

I dont think the status quo is an option, if you want a good long term outcome for all 3 of you.

I don't think it's wise to be diagnosing someone simply through what the OP has described, that is the place of professionals who will do a lot more testing and research. In the meantime, as an adult, there is little that a parent can do to force their son into counselling or any kind of treatment.

I do think there are a lot of jealousy issues between the OPs son and daughter, and that's what she needs to be addressing. Hence the suggestion I made yesterday of some specific mum and son time. 19 year olds are still immature and need their mum, and the older we get, and as independent as we get, we still need to know we are cared for by our parents and can rely on them for moral support.

My godson was used as unpaid childcare for his much younger sibling. It's something that damaged his teenage years - he had to stay in all weekend, every weekend to care for her, do school drop offs, evening duties etc.

I mention this because this is where I am coming from. I have children and managed the supermarket run with them from birth. You don't need your DS to do this. You decided to have another child - it's your responsibility NOT HIS.

FWIW I think he's doing a reasonable amount, but not full weight and probably it would do both of you an awful lot of good if he were to move out.

"everyone only has themselves to blame if their lives are shit, no matter what reason their lives are shit."

My brother boasts the same kind of attitude, and I find it frankly offensive given the way he treats people. If that is genuinely your son's attitude, my inclination would be to stop doing ANYTHING for him. No washing of clothes, no lifts, no buying of treats, no cleaning up after him (as much as you can help it, the toilet situation sounds quite grim) - basically make it unpleasant, or at least non-beneficial, for him to be living in your home. I would hope that this would encourage him to think, "hmmm, life isn't rosy and cushy here anymore, I should take responsibility to sign on/earn money/sort myself out, because after all, I only have myself to blame if my life is shit".

In terms of the possibility of him having mental health and other issues, whilst this may be the case (and you can seek support for this), you still have to be careful not to attempt to compensate for this by being soft on him. My brother did a lot of drugs as a teenager (I did too, incidentally, but we're the same age and I have managed to pull my life together) and now claims to have mental health problems/anxiety/paranoia because of this and because of his "damaged childhood" (I had the same childhood, it wasn't a bad one) - but won't see anyone for help. He has gone to the doctor after a lot of coaxing and been offered the option of therapy and given antidepressants and sleeping pills (he doesn't sleep all night - but this is because he doesn't have to! He has no work/nothing to get up for!). He won't accept the therapy and takes the antidepressants occasionally but not enough so that they would have any kind of positive effect (he also boasts that he has done so many drugs in his time "I won't take legal drugs - they'll fuck me up" ). He also drinks a lot, which is obviously a depressive, and although he has acknowledged that this does not help his state of mind, he refuses to do anything about it. My mum has treated him with kid-gloves because of these problems he claims to have. She uses it as an excuse for his behaviour, and it doesn't help him or her, or anyone else. It isn't an excuse, and if you genuinely think your son may need to be professionally diagnosed and help sought, then by all means support him, but do not use it as an excuse for his shitty behaviour! He is clearly capable of working a washing machine - he can work his mobile phone and his computer I'm sure - it isn't rocket science.

I think my brother would cope if my mum threw him out because he wouldn't have any money for alcohol. He is much more rationally minded when his mind isn't addled with booze, but because he CHOOSES to be pissed all the time, and my mum buys him alcohol and gives him money to go to the pub, he remains in the same situation. I can't see any hope for either of them at this stage, and I am sad about it, because it means my DS will not have any kind of relationship with his uncle (I don't think it is healthy for children to be around that kind of behaviour/attitude - which is why you need to do something for your DDs sake as much as his) and my own relationship with my mother is strained because I am so desperate to help her yet she is blinded by love and guilt. Don't get me wrong, I love my brother to pieces, but his behaviour is so disgusting I cannot abide him. I have tried for years to help him. I have tried tough love, overcompensating with kindness, contacting doctors, AA, etc, all to no avail - because he doesn't want to help himself. My mum gives him everything on a plate, and he doesn't feel the need to change, even though he says he is unhappy there (our mum also has problems with alcohol). And I can't be the one to make the decision to give him an ultimatum - the only one that can do that is my mum and she has been so beaten down by all of this she just can't.

You say you feel that "some DC sink and some swim, and DS, I feel would sink if he was left to his own devices". I disagree. If he cares one iota about himself - which is sounds as though he does considering his commitment to keeping friends/socialising/keeping himself washed and clothes clean etc - then he will find some way to swim. Perhaps I sound like a hard cow but sometimes it takes reaching the bottom to begin to surface. I truly believe it is character building. We have all suffered and we were all that age once - did we not come back from it? Yes - and if things get really, really dire, you can step in at any minute; it isn't as though you are abandoning him and cutting off all contact. Also, your DS has the benefit of not having trouble with alcohol or drugs (it sounds to me, anyway, from what you have written that there are no dependency issues there, although he likes a drink and has dabbled with drugs), and so in my opinion, this puts him in a good position to sort himself out NOW, before things get any worse. Also, if he has to take responsibility for himself financially then he will not have the money to allow himself to spiral into drink/drug dependency. I am not saying he would definitely do this but having seen it happen with my brother, I just wanted to make the comment that this could be a possibility if things aren't tackled properly soon.

Good luck with it all. FWIW I think you sound like a lovely and considerate mum, and have the best interests of both your DCs at heart. Hopefully DS will see the error of his ways and you can support him obtain help if necessary.

You sound very resentful of your brother, Lottery, though I can't offer anything useful to your post as I don't know the background and circumstances. From what you've written, there are very few similarities between your family situation and OP's. You do, however, seem to share my parents' view that children are, essentially, small adults who will 'deal with' whatever life throws at them if pushed.

You perhaps disagree, then, that an abusive step-dad would affect a teenage boy's perception of appropriate manly behaviour. IMO it would also influence his ideas about how men should treat women and about what women should do for men. This chap only left the boy's life one year ago. I feel there is damage to be repaired, and I fail to see how chucking him out (just like his stepfather) will effect those repairs.

mutznutz While, logically, I can see your point, whilst I was in the abusive relationship, I could not see that XP was abusive, just that he needed help.
Have you ever been in an abusive relationship yourself? They are not the easiest relationships to break free from. There is so much more to why it took me so long to get rid of XP, but I don't think this is the thread for it.

What is CAMHS ?

I am pleased to see that DS is not the laziest teen around. That alone gives me hope. Like I said, he is not a bad lad, perhaps I am just going about this the wrong way.

LotteryWinnersonAcid The picture you describe is so similar to what DS's life was like when he was living with his GM, it is uncanny.
'my mum buys him alcohol and gives him money to go to the pub,' 'blinded by love and guilt.' 'My mum gives him everything on a plate, and he doesn't feel the need to change, even though he says he is unhappy there' 'she has been so beaten down by all of this she just can't'.
These are the sentences that particularly resonated with me, about how DS's life was at GM's. He was also unhappy there, and I always wanted him to come back home, which eventually he did.
I am wary of ending up in a situation where DS manipulates me through my feelings of guilt, and definitely do not want to end up in the situation your parents have found themselves in. It must be a terrible strain on them.

Itsawonderful DS has never hit/pushed me, although he has shouted/sworn/manipulated/blackmailed me. These have been very few and far between though.

I do not think it would be a good idea for DS to go back to GM's. Again, there is a lot more to that part of the story, but that is past now, and I want to get on with building a happier brighter future for DS, DD and myself.

This thread has for the most part been so supportive, I can't begin to tell you all how helpful you have all been. Thank you to each and every one of you.

Not sure if it is relevant, but I will mention it anyway, XP, DS and myself lived together for 3 years, before DS went to live with GM. He remained living with GM for 2 years, by which time XP and I had split.

DS has had very little to do with XP, and has not lived with XP for 3 years now.

CAMHS is Child and Adolescent Mental Health Services. I'm not sure if they cover 19 year olds, but they would certainly be the place to go for younger people in this kind of situation.

Thank you MissQue. I will find their contact details and get in touch. It's worth a try.

Thanks for that, OP - it seems I missed some history by not reading all the posts! I've really enjoyed your replies. It's tricky to know how best to support a young adult who's been through many disruptive experiences, especially as you yourself must be feeling stressed and vulnerable. I wish you all the wisdom & support you need - maybe this will turn out to be the year your family starts to settle down at last :)

CAMHS is the community mental health service (in my area they refer to it as CMH). You get a referral from your doctor.

Thank you so much for your kind words ItsGraceAgain.

I sincerely hope this is the year where I make better decisions that will affect my family in a much more positive way. I don't seem to have done too well up until now, but Thank God for MN.

I will see my GP and ask about CAMHS.

I agree that he does sound like he's on the spectrum, maybe when he was much younger they didn't pick it up, it's worth seeing if you can get him reassessed.

I hope you can get some help from CAMHS or one of the other places suggested.

I would try a few things yourself first before approaching CAMHS. (Just that you think he needs help might have a really negative effect on him).
First as previous poster says try to manage him positively. As with younger DCs try to find SOMETHING that you can praise him for every day. And always appreciate what he does do - in time he'll copy this back to you!
Discuss his plans for his future - try to get him working towards a goal or two and help him.
Try to organize some DD free time for you and him and stress how nice it is to have his ADULT company instead of the baby's.
Write down some chores for him to do every day eg Monday lay table serve tea wash up, Tues wash own clothes etc.
I'd focus on building up his self-esteem and confidence. From what you say I'm sure he'll start moving in the right direction given time.
Last thing insist that he's kind to DD. Doesn't have to DO anything with her - just speak to her kindly.
FWIW my DS (14) had some time with nasty exSF and I think I can see it reflected in low respect towards me but we're working on it. I've learnt the hard way the worse thing I can do is shout/lose it with him. Got to be patient but assertive!
Last, last thing make sure you get some breaks for yourself - it's hard work having both your DCs ages and you can't be supermum all the time.
PS Glad you've decided against throwing out - I know it's what I've felt like doing many many times but I think it's the worse thing a parent can do really particularly a lone parent.

There's a lot on here about his/your rights and responsibilities and not much about the RELATIONSHIP between the two of you.

I'm sad for you both.

And I agree that he could/should be doing more, but I also think he's probably defensive. Somehow maybe lots of your limited resources are concentrated on managing things, on running round after your DD, etc. Maybe you've run out of the emotional energy to show any love for him (though I'm sure it's there.)

I haven't said any of this to make you feel bad, but I think the cleanliness thing, the not sticking at anything.. it is a bit weird. If I were you, I'd get some outside help if possible.

Hi, ItsGraceAgain - no resentment about my brother. Heartbroken for my mum, obviously, but I would not like to have his life. I am very happy not to have been indulged like him. My life at the moment is a very stable one - as I said we are the same age but I am in my own home, partner, first child on the way, good job, etc - but I have been to low places in the same way as he has, the difference is I have taken responsibility for myself and made changes. He has blamed everyone else and now he is in a mess. My mother is trying her best to sort herself out, and is looking forward to being a grandmother, but he keeps dragging her down, and maybe it is a strange and destructive dynamic between the two of them, but it is clear that whatever "damage" she has done to him, he has handed it back twice over. It is not as though she, his father and I haven't tried to help him with his issues, through one-to-one support and encouragement for him to seek professional help.

If you see my earlier post, I addressed what I perceived to be very relevant similarities to the OP's post and my own family situation, eg, the beginnings of my brother's bad behaviour being in the "little things" my mum would do for him, as the OP does for her DS - lifts, buying of toiletries, clearing up after him, etc - and it spiraled, resulting in the situation he and my mum are now in. Also the OP's DS's selfish attitude sounds very similar to that of my brother's. The OP asked me if I thought my brother would cope if my mum threw him out, hence my response in my last post.

I don't believe that children are small adults who will 'deal with' whatever life throws at them, but I do believe there is only so much support you can give someone who will not help themselves. Also, the OP's DS is an adult, he is not a child. I don't disagree that he should be supported through his issues with his stepfather, but from what the OP has described, it doesn't sound as though he is particularly receptive to this at the moment, instead taking the attitude that "everyone only has themselves to blame if their lives are shit, no matter what reason their lives are shit", reluctance to see doctors, etc, as described by the OP earlier in the thread. While this may be bravado and pride on his part, for anyone who cares about someone who clearly needs help working through difficult issues, it is like banging your head against a brick wall if that person is unresponsive. By all means the OP should try to help her DS and encourage him to seek counselling, see a doctor, etc, but if he won't then she can't physically force him to do anything he doesn't want to, and in the meantime if he is still treating her house like a hotel and her as a skivvy, then he is not learning to be an adult with responsibilities - ESPECIALLY if the OP lets him get away with this behaviour through her own guilt about his stepdad.

I can appreciate the damage that an influence such as an abusive stepfather could do to an impressionable teenager boy in terms of how he now views women, their role, and how he can treat them, but I do not think that pampering and overcompensating with kindness is the right way to go either, considering his attitude. I do not think that the OP should necessarily throw him out immediately, but I do think that there needs to be some big changes in the household, effective immediately, or he will just continue to believe he can act that way with no consequences, and that way of existing is not realistic or sustainable in the "real world" (if he were entertaining the notion of a girlfriend, for example, I would hope there are not too many women of his age these days who would stand for his attitude). Lessons are learnt through experiences, not through overindulgence and fear that he may "sink" if encouraged to make his own way. It may be the making of him. If not, then you try another approach.

I also think it may help to talk to the family members who are enabling his behaviour. (And I believe that's truly what it is.) They don't have to stop loving him, but they do need to stop throwing money/privileges at him.

He did have a rotten role model for some of his formative years, but he did also have a great role model (his mum, well done OP) who showed that behaviour was unacceptable by ending the relationship. Who knows what this lad's experience was during that time... the split was only 18 months ago? Has his voice been heard about all that?

Cut all of you some slack. Maybe in the short term, negotiate a deal with him. He should not be obliged to take on parenting responsibilities for his little sister. Wrong, wrong, wrong, IMHO. But more household responsibilities, yes. If he'd like adult rights, then at least SOME adult responsibilities.

In the meantime as well, you could initiate something to show him that he means a great deal to you as your first born, and that you still love him. (And loving someone doesn't mean you let them walk all over you. I'd stop doing so much for him, too. So he grows up able to do things for himself. Sounds like he can do quite a lot, and is doing quite a lot, if you ignor the grumbling.) Not giving him presents - lots of people throw money at problems - but give him your time and your positive attention. Catch him doing the right thing and say thank you. It might surprise him.. and surprise him into really talking to you one of these days. I do know that actually getting a teenage son to engage in any chat with you can be a tall order, but at the very least have a meal together once a week and take turns at sorting it. Even if it's a takeaway. Look after each other instead of breeding resentment. It just sounds so tiring, to keep up this dynamic..