to want to kick my DS into touch by throwing him out??

[pressurecooker]

DS is 19, and I love him to bits. I have been a single parent for many years and have 2 DC, DS and DD (2yrs old).

I can't talk to anyone in the family about this, because they rant and moan at DS, but support him wholeheartedly to mine and my DD's detriment.

Basically, the situation is all my fault, and I accept that, but now I am at a loss as to what to do to help DS grow up and take responsibility for his own life.

DS has lost his job and is unemployed atm, and is also doing a part time college course. Since he lost his job, he lays in bed until afternoon, because he stays awake until 3/4 am, and also he doesn't want to be near DD. He complains DD has dirty hands and he doesn't want DD messing up his clothes. When DD is scrupulously clean, he still doesn't want her near him, in case she thinks it's ok to be near him, then comes near him, or touches him at a later time when she has dirty hands.
He doesn't seem to know how to play or interact with DD, apart from telling her to leave him alone, get out of his room etc.

I understand DD can be tiring, but she is my little girl, and she doesn't think like a 19yr old, although my DS says he will treat her the same as anyone else he comes across, who are all young adults.
There is a great deal of resentment from DS to DD.

I cannot seem to get through to DS.

I support him totally, there is no financial contribution from DS at all. He spends his money on driving lessons, a mobile phone contract (which is in my mother's name), and going out enjoying himself.

He says he cant stand to be in the house for long, it drives him mad, which I can understand.

While I get no financial contribution from him, he also does very little to help around the house either. He wont do anything dirty like putting the bins out, or cleaning the toilet, he can't wash dishes (and even washes them in cold water unless I supervise him), he has recently begun to sweep floors, hoover upstairs and watch DD while I use the toilet, but he grumbles and moans about all these things.

I give him lifts when I can, and help him out in so many ways, I was taking him to work and back while he had his job. I have tried to help him sort his finances out, to the point he gave his bank card to me to try to pay off an overdraft, which we were having some success with, until he decided he could watch his money himself and now I have no idea whether he is still on the road to recovery or not.

If I try to make conversation with him, he will say 'What relevance is that to you?'

I just feel so unappreciated. He has free board and lodging, and extras like lifts and I even buy his bloody facial wash.

So in short, under duress and has to be asked every time, he will:

sweep floors
mop floors
cook simple dinners
dry washing up and put away
tidy his room
iron his clothes as and when he needs to
rarely make tea (I'm not having one so I'm not making one)
sort out my pc
a few more cant think at mo

He will not:

play with DD while I go to the toilet/shower
empty bins
clean toilets
scrape his own plates
wash his own pots
wash up at all
go near DD
help with gardening
go shopping with me to help (but will help me unload car when I get back)I find it almost impossible to shop with DD, she either has a full on tantrum from the second we get in the shop because I have made her sit in the trolley, or she runs full pelt all over the shop, so I ask DS to come to amuse DD while I am getting the things I need, and DS only has to come once a fortnight, but he makes such a fuss about it that I usually struggle on my own, because DS refuses pointblank in the end, and I need to shop, for DD and myself as well as DS.
lots more cant think at mo
pay anything towards his keep

It's all such a battle.

Please come tell me how I get through to him.

I lived with an abusive XP from when DS was 13 until he was 18 and it feels like exactly the same thing again, apart from DS does not steal from me.
lots more cant think at mo
pay anything towards his keep

I have to go out now, but will catch up later.

I always did everything for DS when he was younger (so I admit it is my fault) because I was made to do all the chores by my mother and grew up in a very violent abusive household, I just didn't want DS's childhood to be unhappy like mine was. Now it has backfired spectacularly.

When we get on, (when DD is in bed) we get on reasonable well.

Helppppppp!!!!

The fear of your DD being dirty seems a little odd to me.Does he have any other symptoms of OCD at all?
TBH He doesn't sound too bad to me as 19 yo boys go, he does a darned sight more than many that age i know.

I don't know any older siblings who aren't expected to mind the younger ones on occasion. It's just normal family dynamics where the older child is old enough to do so IMO. Perhaps now everyone has much smaller families that's been forgotten? It seems very odd to me to think that's unusual or wrong. Siblings have a responsibility towards each other. My big sister did a lot of my parenting and we have a special bond even now, likewise my cousin and her much younger siblings.

Clearly something has gone very wrong with the relationship between this brother and sister, and it probably has a lot to do with the previous abusive relationship, which I see the OP only escaped from relatively recently.

I wonder whether family counseling might help? The OP's son sounds quite depressed and perhaps has some borderline OCD too - his issues with cleaning and the dirtiness of the little sister seem beyond normal teen angst. It sounds as if there are a lot of unresolved issues and that the previous abuse has messed up the family dynamics significantly.

I suspect that any change will need to be quite carefully managed, probably starting with a nominal household contribution (a % sounds a good approach) and some agreed household tasks. I think the focus with the little sister probably needs to be more about them developing a normal sibling relationship.

'I lived with an abusive XP from when DS was 13 until he was 18 and it feels like exactly the same thing again, apart from DS does not steal from me'

Has your DS had any counselling, to help him rationalise this traumatic period in his life and help him understand what his choices are now?
Yes, sort out some ground rules, but I really wouldn't make any of them involve your DD. I'd link them to life skills for independent living, or preparing him for life in a shared house.
So send him shopping with a backpack and without DD.

I spent too long thinking, nooka said it all better.

I pity his future DW/DP

He's only 19 with a screwed up past, give him a chance.
I'm stunned at what some of my DD's friends have experienced and overcome.

'I pity his future DW/DP'

He won't likely get one, especially not for long. Fewer and fewer women that age are putting up lame partners.

Alarm bells re: dirtiness. Have you looked into this yet?

I personally don't think it is healthy for 19 year olds to be living at home unless they have to, but as he is unemployed, where will he go and how will he pay for it?

Is he claiming benefits?

He also needs to be pulling his weight around the house. As an adult, he should be doing half of all housework.

I don't think he should be expected to care for DD unless he offers (or is paid perhaps) but he should treat her nicely. As she is so little, she has to be your priority, so if he is unable to be kind to her, I would consider giving him a serious ultimatum.

He needs to be contributing financially, and no just a nominal sum.
If he is unable to do so, anything that you pay for him, or any shortfall in the amount he should be paying you, must be worked for. Either he borrows it and will be made to pay back, or he can earn by doing childcare etc.

Through everything you wrote I kept thinking throw the fucker out on his backside.

Just until the very end when you said about having the abusive partner in his life for 5 years.

If you allow an abusive person in your home for 5 years, you have to be aware that your children will suffer for it. You owe it to him to help him sort his life out. Get the guy some counceling or speak to someone yourself to find the way to best him.

Agreed.
Where is his dad? I assume that the DD is from the relationship with the abusive ex?

He should be working, however he is a typical 19 year old what do you expect, he should not have to be the man of the house.

the gap between him and his half sister is huge, and this is why people generally dont have a gap that large because they dont get on.

tbh sorry but you shouldnt have had such a huge gap.

he is a typical teenager, throwing him out for being normal is just plain mean.

I agree with others who have said he should pull his weight but regarding the 2yr old I think you're being unfair.

You had a relationship for 5yrs of his life with an abusive man and then went on to have a child...I can't say I'd be too welcoming of a baby in those circumstances and especially if I were 19yrs old.

I think you are being unreasonable to throw him out of his family home when you admit it's partly your own fault for raising him to be lazy.

Not healthy for a 19 year old to be living at home ? Where should they be then what with all these wonderfully paid jobs they can get to pay rent with just falling at their feet. I fully expect the DC's come back from uni and stay rent free until they've paid off their debts. If they don't it'll be a bonus but things have changed since we were young and 19 is very much at the beginning of adulthood these days.
You can't just kick him out, you'll have to work together to sort this out, the three of you are survivors of a horrible situation you need to pull together.

It would be nice he got on with your 2 year old but he don't - so best not push it at the mo. Does he have probems understanding peoples feelings normally? Ishe always insular? If he is and is also strangely stuck on dirtyness - maybe it's normal teenage behaviour but also maybe he has a touch of autism? I've heard one in ten men are on the spectrum - not sure if it's true though.

I'm posting whilst on the sofa with my 16 YO DS draped over my feet on the floor. My 20 yo DD is curled up on the beanbag, reading.
I'm pleasantly delighted by some of the posters who can still see that at 19, with a damaged past, he's not necessarily entirely at fault and to be discarded because he's failing to meet a standard.
He needs help to see his responsibilities and choices, preferably from someone other than his mother.

Sorry, but 19 year olds are still just children, really. Your DD isn't his responsibility, you should never expect him to look after her.

Just focus on the positives with him, do stuff just with him sometimes, get some basic boundaries in place, and accept that he needs you a lot at the moment

Children who have been part of an abusive family can become detached and have poor relationships, even if they've only seen/heard their parent being assaulted and not had first-hand experience.
It's a basic survival technique.

Have you ever talked to someone about the abusive relationship? Women's Aid or similar? You and he probably have a lot of baggage from that and for a parent and teenager living in that situation some very odd dynamics can form.

I'd look into that first, then look for some family/parenting support so that you can work out what reasonable expectatations to have of his behaviour.

Things aren't going to be perfect and some of what you need to do may include accepting that he is angry with you and that he may never feel the way you want him to about your DD.

You need to work on your relationship and then some of the other stuff will fall into place and you won't feel guilty about things like getting him to contribute financially.

To be honest he sounds like he does more than I did when I was 19. Though I didn't have a younger sibling to either ignore or be nice to. He may be 19 but at 19 I don't think I felt any different than I did when I was 13. My mum did all the housework, washed my clothes, did the washing up, etc. I feel guilty about that now but do think at this age most teenagers are totally unaware and selfish.

I was expecting to come onto this thread and see that he was doing drugs, beating you up, stealing from you, beating his sisters up or something. All of which I'd have thought that yes, kicking him out may be the only option. But not for this. Yes, talk to him and try and convince him that he needs to do more household stuff, etc.

What was the name of the journalist from the Guardian, she threw her teenage son out - think he was called Jake. He wrote articles afterwards saying how much his mother had stuffed his life up by abandoning him, etc. How much he hated her and wouldn't forgive her. I think if you kick your DS out your relationship will never recover.

Sounds like the DD being dirty is just an excuse to get her away from him.

Write a list of everything you do around the house that you would like help with, and let him choose which ones he would prefer to do - perhaps write them for set amounts of money
(£1-3 a chore) and the 'money' from these will be his keep.

Most 2 year olds are dirty though, sticky and dribbly, and usually coated with a layer of unidentifiable gloop.
Is she still in nappies? Or potty training?

My ds is the same age and it's taken a long time for him to get to where he is, but it's possible with time and effort. I was married to a bully and there was a lot of problems between my ds and ex, ex was jealous of the attention ds got from me, and the bond we had (he wasn't ds's father). He had a lot to cope with in his teens, as I got divorced when he was 12, I suffered with ptsd/depression/anxiety/panic attacks, and he saw it all. He took the role of man of the house, helping me with his disabled younger sister.

He rebelled, skiving off school, he was scruffy and smelly, wouldn't wash, wouldn't do much at all, stole money from me and acted like a knobhead basically. He dropped out of college and pretty much sponged off me until he was 18 and able to claim jobseekers allowance, I had to pay for his upkeep on benefits, with no money at all coming in for him.

But over the course of the last year, he has realised a great deal of stuff. He's settled down with a regular girlfriend, and she encouraged him to get a job at the nursing home where she worked. He hated it, but he stuck at it until a couple of weeks ago, when he got another job in retail. He's still struggling financially, but he is getting the hang of managing his own money and is paying me some of his wages towards his upkeep. He even washes regularly; I doubt his girlfriend would want to go near him if he didn't

So there is hope, he could have gone really off the rails, and he did in some ways, but it is possible for them to sort themselves out in their own time, with support from you.

Is there the chance of a babysitter so you two can have some time together? Doesn't have to be anything big, just find out when he'll be at home one night and have a pizza night or something. Me and the lad have gone to festivals and gigs together, although that depends on having similar music tastes, but perhaps he just needs to know that he hasn't been replaced by his little sister, especially as he was an only child for so long (I'm assuming).