Circumcision but no Circumcision Party

[thefruitwhisperer]

DP is turkish but he and his family were all born in the UK and dont practise Muslim traditions apart from Eid. My DP is the only one who does Ramadan and thats only every couple of years when he can be bothered. They celebrate xmas and easter etc.

Ive agreed to have our month old baby circumcised as thats what DP wants and I agree that there are plus points, but Im an atheist so I would like all religious connotations taken out of the situation. I think thats a fair compromise (esp as its going to be quite hard for me, Im really scared) and I would like it to be a quiet decision between DP and I. His family will know the baby has been cut, why do we need to celebrate it in a party that is more for the sake of getting presents than it is anything else. I dont want the gifts.

DP has admitted that the only reason his family circumcise their babies is for social reasons, everyone has it done, everyone has a party, everyone gets money as gifts. Ive compromised on the actual circumcism, and I really really dont want to have a party. I will feel as though Ive sold my babies foreskin. Add to that, if theres no religious reason for it, why are we even doing it - and the only answer I can see is cultural/social/peer pressure reasons. I just dont see any reason to celebrate this pointless operation (obviously only pointless in this instance, I can understand where it is necessary medically or in religious circumstances) other than to show off that we have conformed and then get some money. Children who have their appendixes out dont have parties. I mean, I could equally argue that we have the baby christened catholic, my family all are and dont go to church.

AIBU to have the operation but draw the line at a party? I think DPs family are all going to be disappointed with me. And his grandparents apparently disowned his uncle for the same thing.

watch a video of circumsion first is just scaremongering. Your child will be under anesthetic, it will be a bit sore afterwards though. Circumsised penis`s are cleaner than non, your sons penis will be less sensitive as a result of the operation although he will know no different.

If you are doing this but not for religious reasons then dont have it done. There are two reasons to have it done, A for religios reasons that you clearly arent and B, for medical reasons. You dont seem to be doing it for either so why bother?

The party is for an initiation, a welcoming much like a christening or the Jewish party boys go through when they enter manhood. Only in this instance he will have his skin removed.

I wouldnt do it for the reasons you have stated.

Yes, Norwegian I find entering into something with a blindfold and ear plugs is far better to avoid facing up to torturing your own child for NO reason. If a religion requires that you mutilate your child for God, then it's a shit religion.

spikey.....Actually I think you're right, white middle class can afford to be right. Mainly because we have no limiting thoughts and are not as easily conned, it comes from being arrogant enough to question EVERYTHING. It also helps wipe out primitive ideas.

If I cut off my dd's earlobe, is that abuse? What if a ghostly figure told me to?

Spikey,

That's a pretty unfair and unhelpful comment. This isn't about class this is about CHOPPING OFF A PART OF A CHILD'S BODY in the name of religion (or in the case of the OP social pressures). OP asked for opinions and she is getting them. The fact remains that in ANY other circumstance, if you chopped off part of a child's body it would be considered harmful and abusive. Why should it be seen any differently because religion is added to the mix?

It's seen differently by the people adopting the practice. If you think it's child abuse that's your opinion, but the fact is not all Jews and Muslims are child abusers are they?

Yes, if they mutilate their child they are guilty of abuse. This sort of thing is exactly why I view such religions as primitive and backward......this is 2010, what is happening in this world that some ludicrous 1000year old or more stories are still believed to be relevant? Haven't we got past this need to make up ghosties and all powerful beings?

You are standing outside the culture making judgements on that culture. The British are viewed as greedy and as caring more about consumer goods than anything deeper, but that doesn't apply to everyone does it? It's part of the culture to buy buy buy, have one day off to stuff our faces then go to the sales and buy some more. It sounds awful written down but that is what a lot of us do. When you're part of it it tends to go unquestionned, I think calling it child abuse is a step too far

Spikey hasn't read the thread yet feels the need to slag off all white middle class posters in one ill informed post. Idiot.

In fact the OP still doesn't seem to have returned.

spikey....perhaps that's how you live. I prefer to be a good person with less materialistic values, not perfect but not needing to follow some ancient vile practice to assist my child being accepted by God. The objective non believer is not blinded by faith.

Fool, I've seen the disgraceful bullying that happens on these threads before. And it is the middle classes that sit in judgement more than anyone else. How you can deny that I don't know. Arsehole

Why not let the child decide?? Wait until he is older and then see if he wants to have part of his penis chopped off...........

And "It sounds awful written down but that is what a lot of us do. When you're part of it it tends to go unquestioned" well thats awfully good to know.....just because it's been done for x years we should just keep going?!?!?

TFP that's what I mean, you don't feel you are "like that", and many parents who circumcise don't feel like they're abusing their child. In fact, they may feel they are doing their child a service. This is all subjective, one opinion isn't better or more right than the other, it can never be,when it comes to culture and tradition.

CRUEL- plain and simple there is no need for it and op you dont sound 100% you want it to happen so dont.

for the person who said they dont vaccinate their children- really?!! Its for their best interests to be vaccinated- and what about poorly sick children who depend on the healthy children that are vaccinated to stop the spread of horrible illness and disease!!!

Norwegian, this is 2010 Britain, not the middle East. We like to protect our children and don't insult the wealth of working class families that wouldn't mutilate their children either. Tradition does not make vile acts okay. Traditionally we would think a person could have sex at 12, back in 1275, now we think 16....it's called social evolution...you should try it.

Er, I'm not middle class and I still feel fine about judging other cultural practices that I believe are wrong. How about stoning women to death for adultery? Maybe we shouldn't judge that either.

No, I don't feel anything. I don't go and spend hideous amounts of cash on shopping or material things. It's not subjective....pain is pain.

Weemee if you were part of a culture, fully integrated in it, then you may not go against it. It's not as simple as that. I'm off now before I become a great defender of something I don't care that much about. Calling all parents who circumcise abusers is wrong

"white middle class shit land". I can't believe you said that Norwegian

Try and substitute black for white and see how your post looks.

Spikeycow - are you trying to say you think circumcision for cultural reasons is okay? We are talking here about the practice of doing it 'just because it is the done thing'. So I would suggest that it is people who do just that who are not being open minded and questioning of other 'routes'. As I said before - perhaps someone from another culture would find me making my hair-wash-phobic son wash his hair cruel - but I DID question that rather than carry on dong something with a closed mind. So this is about a wider issue of acting without questioning, and judgement is not necessarily negative.
BTW - I would hardly consider myself middle class.

I honestly think if you hate this country so much there are loads of places that you could live.

Wow NorwegianMoon, your carefully constructed arguments and thoughtful responses have really made me reconsider my opposition to ritual circumcision

I hate the arguement that it's fine to circumcise for religious or cultural reasons and we mustn't question that. It happens every time this debate comes up on another forum I use. Only, when you point out that by that theory we should also respect those who circumcise women or stone women to death for adultery or even percieved adultery, that's apparently different.

Someone posted a video of circumcision on another thread, I am not sure it's been posted on this one. It's this video:

www.givingbirthnaturally.com/circumcision-video.html

I have to admit, I couldn't watch the whole thing, it's extremely upsetting. How anyone can try and say that doesn't hurt the baby is beyond me, it is clear the baby is extremely distressed.